Mithal al-Alusi is the leader of Iraq’s Ummah Party and a veteran secular politician from Anbar province. He has been elected twice to Iraq’s House of Representatives and is one of the most outspoken critics of the Iraqi government and its sectarian structure.
Al-Alusi believes that the Kurds are justified in their independence quest and that their referendum must go ahead without regard to outside opposition. He cites the failure of Iraq and its divisive and sectarian politics as the reason for the Kurdish estrangement, adding that the Kurds’ separation would embolden other Iraqis to demand their rights.
Al-Alusi says that he’ll attend Kurdistan referendum day by waving the Kurdish flag and giving moral support to the Kurds.
He has been a proponent of good relations with the West, including Israel. Following a visit to Israel in 2005, the first Iraqi politician to do so, an assassination attempt was made on his life which killed his two sons.
It might be a cliché question already, but I ask all Iraqi leaders I meet: What is going to be the fate of Mosul after ISIS?
Mithal al-Alusi: A modern state is a project to serve and respect its people. It’s about building an economic infrastructure, education and coexistence. But the state in Baghdad has failed. It’s the same as the government of pre-2003, that’s why I truly believe Masoud Barzani and Masrour Barzani are correct when they say Iraq is a failed state. People in Basrah, Ammara and Baghdad too ask the same question of what state are we talking about? Where are public services and drinking water? That’s why I believe September 25 is the day of saving Iraq not the day of its disintegration.
So you believe Kurdistan’s referendum is not the start of the disintegration of Iraq?
We’ve been lying since 1921 [Iraq’s foundation]. We’ve been saying for a hundred years that we are leading a revolution, but it has all been a lie. The state of education and labor force is terrible and we’ve been lying to ourselves since the days of Saddam Hussein.
Therefore, September 25 is saying that the system of governance in the Middle East has failed. This has in itself become a problem for the rulers, Iran, Turkey, Baghdad, America and Russia. If the rights of the Kurds had been respected they wouldn’t be holding a referendum. That’s why this referendum would be a major boost for the people of Basrah, Anbar and other provinces too to come out and demand their rights. This would mean the collapse of the Islamic and nationalist groups’ grip on power in Baghdad.
This is not the division of Iraq. The state means services and human rights, not handing out chickens. Saddam Hussein was handing out chickens thinking he was rewarding the nation. The state is obliged to serve its people and if the Kurdistan Region goes ahead with its referendum the people of other provinces too will be able to demand their rights. Unless the government in Baghdad revises itself and its actions, it will collapse the day the referendum takes place. It’s absolutely ridiculous for a Shiite government to grant itself all rights but deprive Yezidis, Christians, Mandaeans, and others that same right. In another words, Kurdistan’s independence will give Baghdad independence from Iran and others.
How would this referendum improve the situation in Iraq? What will happen to the Sunnis and balance of power?
After Kurdistan’s referendum, the rulers of Baghdad will be left with two choices. They will either become democratic and constitutional or become ISIS and Baathists and dictators. They’re all lying. They aren’t concerned in the least about Iraq. It’s all about money and power. If they were worried about the integrity of Iraq, Mosul, Salahaddin and Anbar wouldn’t have fallen to ISIS. If they were worried about Iraq, militia groups wouldn’t have been roaming the streets now.
With all due respect, there is a spirit of fascism in Arabs and Muslims. And some of the leaders in Baghdad are promoting that spirit in order to protect their posts and interests. That’s why I believe the referendum in Kurdistan will give other Iraqis the freedom to demand their rights.
There’s this fear that if Kurds leave Iraq, Sunni Arabs will be left alone and destroyed.
Are they not annihilated now? Both Shiites and Sunnis have been destroyed. Who says the Shiites are free? They too are oppressed
by the Islamic parties. Militia groups are oppressing the Shiite population in order to keep ruling them.
Do you think the Kurds’ reasons and excuses for separating from Iraq are justified?
The Kurdish leadership has tried many ways to stay with Iraq and solve the disputes between Erbil and Baghdad. But they all failed. I want a united democratic Iraq where the rights of the Kurds are respected, but that Iraq never came to being. Iraq is living in the past. If the Kurds succeed in their referendum and establish an advanced Kurdish state, Iraq will be obliged to return to democracy or forever disappear.
What do you think Iraq’s reaction will be in the case of Kurdistan holding the referendum?
The veteran politicians of Iraq know very well the history of the Kurdish struggle. When the Kurds were fighting the regime in Baghdad they never once assassinated an Iraqi nor ever resorted to bombings and violence. Many Iraqi army divisions fell to the Kurds but they never took revenge on them. The Kurdish freedom movement always treated Iraqi soldiers as victims.
I hope the Kurds rebuild their country with the same spirit and level of morality. I was very pleased to hear Masrour Barzani say in Washington that the rights of all ethnic and religious groups will be respected in Kurdistan. A successful Kurdish state will draw a new map for the Middle East. The success of the referendum will be the success of Baghdad too. If they react it will only be to make an imaginary enemy of the Kurds the same way they’ve carved out an enemy in the name of Zionism.
The Sunnis of Iraq share the longest border with the Kurds. What will be their stance?
Before the coming of ISIS, I was worried about the position of the Sunnis, but the Kurdistan Region and its people opened their doors
and homes and welcomed 1.5 million of them and provided them with water, food and shelter. The Sunnis didn’t know the Kurds well. Baghdad, which considers itself the capital of Islam and democracy, did not allow the people of Fallujah and Anbar to enter that city. But the Kurdistan Region opened its doors. This deed has changed the view of Sunni Arabs.
The Shiite Hashd Al-Shaabi have appeared on the borders of the Kurdistan Region and Kurds fear a confrontation. Do you think this will happen?
Not all Hashd are hostile towards the Kurds. Only the Hashd tied to Iran are trying to cause headaches and trouble. There’s another point, and it’s that Masoud Barzani is a real threat to Iran. Masoud Barzani not submitting to Iran’s intimidations will help other Iraqis rise and free themselves of the yoke of Iran.
But no friendly country to Kurds has expressed support for this project yet?
You shouldn’t wait for this or that foreign minister to support you. Kurdistan’s independence referendum is about the freedom-loving people of the world. The Kurds will succeed with the support of those. So don’t underestimate this.
The United States too, is asking for the postponement of the referendum.
Most of the decision-makers and centers in Washington support the Kurdish referendum. But they do not say it. I’m aware that on his latest visit Masrour Barzani won great support, but he is not publicizing it either.
If you look at domestic politics in Kurdistan you’ll see grievances there, too. What do you think of that as an Arab politician?
No Kurd is against the referendum, they’re only playing political games. I knew Gorran leader Nawshirwan Mustafa and others. They too want the Kurdish experience to succeed. What we see is a political rivalry. Just so you know, when I sit with Gorran leaders there’s none of them who does not have respect for Masoud Barzani. Once I was at the airport returning with a Gorran MP and she was saying that Barzani’s shoes were worth many of the failed leaders of Baghdad. But that same MP criticizes Masoud Barzani in the media. So we have to respect each other’s views. Otherwise, strategically all Kurds support the referendum. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Yes vote in the referendum is over 90%.
What suggestions do you have for the Kurdish leaders on the question of referendum?
I hope next to the referendum ballot box there is also a box for the Arabs, Turkmen, and others to vote for what they want. I’m
certain they’ll cast more votes. The Kurds must unite their voice and stance from today till the actual day comes. It really hurts me when I see the Kurds preoccupied with football matches of Real Madrid and Barcelona on Iskan Street instead of worrying about their future. The Kurds must not be onlookers. They must be waving flags. You’re making a great history of morality and humanity to prove to the world that you deserve a state of your own.
You’re an old friend of Masoud Barzani. What do you have to say to him?
I am a man of law and against anyone staying in power beyond their term. But you say that your struggle hasn’t ended yet and a state hasn’t been established. Masoud Barzani has never been a president and the world sees him as the leader of the Kurdish nation.
Let me tell you something which I told the brothers at Gorran, too. Once we had a meeting with representatives of all the decision-making centers in Washington. I was talking of the position of the Kurdistan Region in its disputes with Baghdad and the Americans asked me whose position was that. I said it was the government’s position. They asked who in the government. I didn’t answer, but one of their own officials [American] said Masoud Barzani had the same position. Upon hearing that the tone of the meeting changed.
I told the brothers at Gorran too that they may have lived their whole life in politics but the fact is that the world only knows Jalal Talabani, Masoud Barzani, and Nawshirwan Mustafa. Now Nawshirwan has passed away, Talabani is ill, and only Masoud Barzani is left as the only Kurdish leader. The world trusts and respects him. Therefore it’s okay if the Kurdish people gather around him. I urge all sides to hold on to Barzani because he is your rescue line. I’m not a Kurd but I wish the Kurds to have their own state. I’ll be in Kurdistan on September 25. In one hand I’ll wave the Kurdish flag and defend it with a gun in the other.
Al-Alusi believes that the Kurds are justified in their independence quest and that their referendum must go ahead without regard to outside opposition. He cites the failure of Iraq and its divisive and sectarian politics as the reason for the Kurdish estrangement, adding that the Kurds’ separation would embolden other Iraqis to demand their rights.
Al-Alusi says that he’ll attend Kurdistan referendum day by waving the Kurdish flag and giving moral support to the Kurds.
He has been a proponent of good relations with the West, including Israel. Following a visit to Israel in 2005, the first Iraqi politician to do so, an assassination attempt was made on his life which killed his two sons.
It might be a cliché question already, but I ask all Iraqi leaders I meet: What is going to be the fate of Mosul after ISIS?
Mithal al-Alusi: A modern state is a project to serve and respect its people. It’s about building an economic infrastructure, education and coexistence. But the state in Baghdad has failed. It’s the same as the government of pre-2003, that’s why I truly believe Masoud Barzani and Masrour Barzani are correct when they say Iraq is a failed state. People in Basrah, Ammara and Baghdad too ask the same question of what state are we talking about? Where are public services and drinking water? That’s why I believe September 25 is the day of saving Iraq not the day of its disintegration.
So you believe Kurdistan’s referendum is not the start of the disintegration of Iraq?
We’ve been lying since 1921 [Iraq’s foundation]. We’ve been saying for a hundred years that we are leading a revolution, but it has all been a lie. The state of education and labor force is terrible and we’ve been lying to ourselves since the days of Saddam Hussein.
Kurdistan’s independence will give Baghdad independence from Iran and others 
Therefore, September 25 is saying that the system of governance in the Middle East has failed. This has in itself become a problem for the rulers, Iran, Turkey, Baghdad, America and Russia. If the rights of the Kurds had been respected they wouldn’t be holding a referendum. That’s why this referendum would be a major boost for the people of Basrah, Anbar and other provinces too to come out and demand their rights. This would mean the collapse of the Islamic and nationalist groups’ grip on power in Baghdad.
This is not the division of Iraq. The state means services and human rights, not handing out chickens. Saddam Hussein was handing out chickens thinking he was rewarding the nation. The state is obliged to serve its people and if the Kurdistan Region goes ahead with its referendum the people of other provinces too will be able to demand their rights. Unless the government in Baghdad revises itself and its actions, it will collapse the day the referendum takes place. It’s absolutely ridiculous for a Shiite government to grant itself all rights but deprive Yezidis, Christians, Mandaeans, and others that same right. In another words, Kurdistan’s independence will give Baghdad independence from Iran and others.
How would this referendum improve the situation in Iraq? What will happen to the Sunnis and balance of power?
After Kurdistan’s referendum, the rulers of Baghdad will be left with two choices. They will either become democratic and constitutional or become ISIS and Baathists and dictators. They’re all lying. They aren’t concerned in the least about Iraq. It’s all about money and power. If they were worried about the integrity of Iraq, Mosul, Salahaddin and Anbar wouldn’t have fallen to ISIS. If they were worried about Iraq, militia groups wouldn’t have been roaming the streets now.
With all due respect, there is a spirit of fascism in Arabs and Muslims. And some of the leaders in Baghdad are promoting that spirit in order to protect their posts and interests. That’s why I believe the referendum in Kurdistan will give other Iraqis the freedom to demand their rights.
There’s this fear that if Kurds leave Iraq, Sunni Arabs will be left alone and destroyed.
Are they not annihilated now? Both Shiites and Sunnis have been destroyed. Who says the Shiites are free? They too are oppressed
Iraq is living in the past
Do you think the Kurds’ reasons and excuses for separating from Iraq are justified?
The Kurdish leadership has tried many ways to stay with Iraq and solve the disputes between Erbil and Baghdad. But they all failed. I want a united democratic Iraq where the rights of the Kurds are respected, but that Iraq never came to being. Iraq is living in the past. If the Kurds succeed in their referendum and establish an advanced Kurdish state, Iraq will be obliged to return to democracy or forever disappear.
What do you think Iraq’s reaction will be in the case of Kurdistan holding the referendum?
The veteran politicians of Iraq know very well the history of the Kurdish struggle. When the Kurds were fighting the regime in Baghdad they never once assassinated an Iraqi nor ever resorted to bombings and violence. Many Iraqi army divisions fell to the Kurds but they never took revenge on them. The Kurdish freedom movement always treated Iraqi soldiers as victims.
I hope the Kurds rebuild their country with the same spirit and level of morality. I was very pleased to hear Masrour Barzani say in Washington that the rights of all ethnic and religious groups will be respected in Kurdistan. A successful Kurdish state will draw a new map for the Middle East. The success of the referendum will be the success of Baghdad too. If they react it will only be to make an imaginary enemy of the Kurds the same way they’ve carved out an enemy in the name of Zionism.
The Sunnis of Iraq share the longest border with the Kurds. What will be their stance?
Before the coming of ISIS, I was worried about the position of the Sunnis, but the Kurdistan Region and its people opened their doors
Masoud Barzani is a real threat to Iran
The Shiite Hashd Al-Shaabi have appeared on the borders of the Kurdistan Region and Kurds fear a confrontation. Do you think this will happen?
Not all Hashd are hostile towards the Kurds. Only the Hashd tied to Iran are trying to cause headaches and trouble. There’s another point, and it’s that Masoud Barzani is a real threat to Iran. Masoud Barzani not submitting to Iran’s intimidations will help other Iraqis rise and free themselves of the yoke of Iran.
But no friendly country to Kurds has expressed support for this project yet?
You shouldn’t wait for this or that foreign minister to support you. Kurdistan’s independence referendum is about the freedom-loving people of the world. The Kurds will succeed with the support of those. So don’t underestimate this.
The United States too, is asking for the postponement of the referendum.
Most of the decision-makers and centers in Washington support the Kurdish referendum. But they do not say it. I’m aware that on his latest visit Masrour Barzani won great support, but he is not publicizing it either.
If you look at domestic politics in Kurdistan you’ll see grievances there, too. What do you think of that as an Arab politician?
No Kurd is against the referendum, they’re only playing political games. I knew Gorran leader Nawshirwan Mustafa and others. They too want the Kurdish experience to succeed. What we see is a political rivalry. Just so you know, when I sit with Gorran leaders there’s none of them who does not have respect for Masoud Barzani. Once I was at the airport returning with a Gorran MP and she was saying that Barzani’s shoes were worth many of the failed leaders of Baghdad. But that same MP criticizes Masoud Barzani in the media. So we have to respect each other’s views. Otherwise, strategically all Kurds support the referendum. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Yes vote in the referendum is over 90%.
What suggestions do you have for the Kurdish leaders on the question of referendum?
I hope next to the referendum ballot box there is also a box for the Arabs, Turkmen, and others to vote for what they want. I’m
No Kurd is against the referendum, they’re only playing political games
You’re an old friend of Masoud Barzani. What do you have to say to him?
I am a man of law and against anyone staying in power beyond their term. But you say that your struggle hasn’t ended yet and a state hasn’t been established. Masoud Barzani has never been a president and the world sees him as the leader of the Kurdish nation.
Let me tell you something which I told the brothers at Gorran, too. Once we had a meeting with representatives of all the decision-making centers in Washington. I was talking of the position of the Kurdistan Region in its disputes with Baghdad and the Americans asked me whose position was that. I said it was the government’s position. They asked who in the government. I didn’t answer, but one of their own officials [American] said Masoud Barzani had the same position. Upon hearing that the tone of the meeting changed.
I told the brothers at Gorran too that they may have lived their whole life in politics but the fact is that the world only knows Jalal Talabani, Masoud Barzani, and Nawshirwan Mustafa. Now Nawshirwan has passed away, Talabani is ill, and only Masoud Barzani is left as the only Kurdish leader. The world trusts and respects him. Therefore it’s okay if the Kurdish people gather around him. I urge all sides to hold on to Barzani because he is your rescue line. I’m not a Kurd but I wish the Kurds to have their own state. I’ll be in Kurdistan on September 25. In one hand I’ll wave the Kurdish flag and defend it with a gun in the other.
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