Iraq’s Deputy Prime Minister Rowsch Nuri Shaways spoke to Rudaw at this critical juncture when the Iraqi Army has collapsed, Islamic militants who have captured large parts of Sunni territories are near Baghdad and the Kurdistan Region has moved in to Kurdish territories outside its borders and is in control of all of the so-called “disputed territories” over which Baghdad and Erbil have both laid claim. Shaways, a Kurd, blamed the security collapse and advance by the militants on Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki’s refusal to work with the Kurds on security. Saying that “the threat of terrorism is very real,” he said the Iraqi government “will be making a great mistake if it is not fully prepared” for defending Baghdad. Shaways also said that Peshmerga forces what have moved into the disputed territories are likely to stay there for a very long time.
Here is an edited transcript of his interview:
Rudaw: How distressed is the Iraqi government about the ISIS attacks?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: The ISIS attacks on Mosul and other areas have a big a impact on the situation in Iraq and caused the collapse of the army, which for a decade Iraq has been trying to build with the help of its allies. This defeat impacts the whole situation in Iraq, and undoubtedly if the militants advance farther, they will pose a threat to Baghdad, too.
Rudaw: Is it feared that Baghdad may fall into their hands?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: The threat of terrorism is very serious.
Rudaw: Is Iraq prepared to defend Baghdad?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: It will be making a great mistake if it is not fully prepared.
Rudaw: Why do you think the Iraqi army sustained that kind of collapse?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: For many reasons: One, because the army was built on a wrong foundation, and not compatible with the constitution. Second, the army has been put in charge of security throughout Iraq without taking into account that the regions are different and you cannot compare Mosul to Karbala, for example. They have tried to keep away the Peshmerga from areas where they could defend. In the past decade the Peshmerga have fought in Fallujah, Diyala and Ramadi to defend democracy in Iraq. But through deception, slowly they pushed them away and replaced them with Iraqi troops.
Rudaw: Was this done by Maliki?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: It is clear who is the commander-in-chief. In the disputed territories, too, the Iraqi army had come and built bases. Ninety percent of the officers in the units posted in those areas were former officers in the old army, who had been defeated in the Iran-Iraq war and the Kuwait war. An officer or an army that has been defeated cannot be given command.
Rudaw: Isn’t it the same old officers who are in charge of the army in Baghdad?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: No, it is not the same in Baghdad. In Baghdad, there are Shiites and Sunnis, and there are some who stand by the government while some who do not. Some people will have no choice but to fight for Baghdad, because if the government fails there will be no authority. And some regional powers may also support the Iraqi government. That is why the fighting in Baghdad may be fiercer.
Rudaw: What is the percentage of Kurds in the Iraqi army?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: There are few left in the army and federal police. In our estimate is around three percent.
Rudaw: Kurdistan Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani said that Baghdad didn’t cooperate with the Kurds to prevent the fall of Mosul. Why didn’t they cooperate?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: Non-cooperation is nothing new. Maliki wanted only himself to be in charge of security in Mosul. Maliki didn’t really want to work with the Kurds on this. Otherwise, the situation wouldn’t have reached this point. Maliki was convinced that they had their own security plan. But now that it has failed, they must find something new.
Rudaw: Did you ask Maliki why he wasn’t cooperating with the Kurdish government?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: Cooperation has to be done as part of a plan and agreement. Do you think the Kurds will just go ahead and offer military support without a solid political basis?
Rudaw: What are the Kurds’ preconditions for giving help and sending in forces to those areas?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: Everything has to be done as part of a plan agreed on by all parties in Iraq. It has to be done in genuine partnership and according to the constitution. Unless these conditions are met, I see it unlikely for Erbil and Baghdad to agree, and any cooperation would be pointless.
Rudaw: Who do you think is supporting the ISIS?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: There are different theories. A force that moves about so strongly and with such capability must have a strong supporter. I am not accusing anyone, but Iraqi security officials say Saudi Arabia and Qatar are helping them.
Rudaw: Did they say in Baghdad that Kurds are supporting the ISIS?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: How dare they say such a thing!
Rudaw: Peshmerga forces have moved to Kirkuk and parts of Nineveh. Will they turn back?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: The Peshmerga are a force that defend Kurdistan and the Kurdish people, be it in Kurdistan or the disputed territories. Now that the Iraqi army has left some important areas, if they are not taken there will be a threat to Kurdistan, especially areas in Kirkuk and Nineveh that are part of Kurdistan, and it is the duty of the Peshmerga to protect them.
Rudaw: Will the Peshmerga leave those areas?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: If the situation continues as it is, they will certainly stay longer, because an army that has faced such a big defeat will take a long time to rise. If after 10 years of training and funding the army collapsed like that, it will take at least another five years to get back to where it was. In the meantime the Peshmerga forces in those areas must be ready and not allow terrorists harm Kurdistan. Then, once the Iraqi parties have reached a political agreement, the conditions will change and it is a different story whether the Peshmerga will stay in those areas or not. If you are asking me, until Article 140 is fully implemented the Peshmerga should stay.
Rudaw: The Kurdistan Region tried to sell its oil, but under pressure from Maliki the tankers were held in Morocco? Where do Erbil and Baghdad stand on that issue now?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: It is two different issues. The Kurdistan Region on one side and Maliki’s government with Hussein Shahristani and the Iraqi oil one the other. The Kurdish government wants to sell its oil in order to compensate for the budget that is its constitutional share. But the Iraqi government wants to control everything, and whoever has some authority is using it in that regard. The Iraqi government has relations with Morocco and told them, “don’t allow Kurdistan’s oil to be sold.” Meantime, the KRG has the right to look for businesses and countries that need energy in order to sell them the oil. That is the kind of issue we are dealing with.
Rudaw: Which policy will eventually succeed?
Rowsch Nuri Shaways: In today’s political circumstances, the KRG will succeed. It has sold oil and will sell (more). If Maliki had been the prime minister of a democratic and federal Iraq, he would have solved the issue of oil and gas a long time ago, and there are many ways to do it.
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