Hamas’ political chief discusses Middle East, Gaza with Rudaw

Rudaw’s Bestoon Khalid spoke with the chief of the military Hamas movement’s political bureau Ismail Haniyeh in Doha on March 15, discussing a wide range of topics including the situation in Gaza, Iran’s ties with Palestine and Tehran’s recent missile attack in Erbil.

The following transcript has been edited for length and clarity. 

Rudaw: I would have been happy to have this interview with you in Gaza, but I found you here in Doha. Why are you not in Gaza? Why are you based in Doha?

In the name of God. I am a resident of Gaza, staying in one of the Palestinian displaced camps, the Beach camp. My trip to Doha is a duty call since I am the head of the politburo of the Hamas movement.  I have some duties and engagements with the movement and the people of my nation, and this trip is as well within the framework of our relations with Arab and Islamic countries. My stay here in Doha is surely temporary and God willing I will return to Gaza.

But I believe you left Gaza in 2020 and have not returned there since, when do you plan to go back to Gaza?

It depends on the duties that befall the leadership of the Hamas movement during this period. God willing, we will go back to Gaza. I also have frequent visits to Egypt and Cairo which is close to the Gaza Strip. I also receive some of our brothers there who come to visit Doha and Istanbul that is why there is a normal movement between me and Gaza.

I am very interested to hear from you about the internal situation in the Gaza Strip. You held meetings with all the leaders of the Hamas movement in 2021 including the leaders from Gaza and I am sure you are aware of the Gaza situation after the May 2021 war. What is happening in Gaza? I mean in terms of the basic services, the reconstruction of Gaza, and the livelihood of the people in Gaza.

The situation in Gaza is difficult. Gaza has been under a blockade for the last 15 years, and during the same period, it has witnessed four wars. This is despite the corona threat, meaning three challenges have come together against Gaza: occupation and aggression, blockade, and corona. War and blockade have caused disasters and sufferings in Gaza. There are thousands of martyrs, injured, and destroyed houses. Unemployment and poverty are both high. A huge number of universities graduates which number about 100,000 are all jobless. Gaza is suffering and it is the biggest witness of the aggressive and cruel spirit of the occupier, it is as well evidence of the dual measures that the American administration and the West in general apply. Unfortunately, some of the regional countries are quiet regarding the blockade and the suffering of the people of Gaza who number more than two million people. We are talking about a big prison that includes more than 2 million Palestinians.

Following the war in May 2021, the Hamas movement was, to an extent, militarily more effective than in previous wars. I am going to ask you what contributed to this effect, but first did this efficacy make you hold the upper hand in the indirect talks with Israel following the war? To have more cards in your hands?

Certainly, the Martyr Izz ad-Din al-Qassam units and the resistance groups had reached a significant level in their capability to counter the Zionist occupation and countering them, this prevailed in the Saif al-Quds battle that happened during the holy month of Ramdan. The cause of the war was the Israeli project and the measures it wanted to implement in the al-Aqsa mosque and Jerusalem. It is beyond doubt that once you are powerful militarily, you will become more powerful politically, more powerful in the negotiations. This was evident during the indirect negotiations with the Zionist occupiers mediated by our brothers in Egypt and Qatar, as well by the United Nations.

During the indirect talks you held with Israel, did you secure any achievements that could decrease the level of the blockade against Gaza?

Certainly, following the wars we engaged in, we can secure back some of our denied rights, both on the humanitarian and livelihood levels. Some similar steps have been taken after the war, for example, the border crossings are now functioning normally, the reconstructions have started again, although it is slow, I mean the reconstructions of those buildings destroyed by the invaders during the war. Currently, hundreds of workers from Gaza have got the right to work in occupied Palestine. There is a daily movement [of goods and people] through the Rafah border crossing between our brothers in Egypt and Gaza, there is a good trade exchange between Gaza and Cairo. All of these have been secured because of the pressures of the resistance. However, this is not enough, and Gaza is suffering from big problems. Our stance and demands are clear in this regard: the blockade against Gaza should be lifted, the land, air, and sea blockade should be lifted. The people of Gaza should enjoy all their rights including the demand to have access to the airport and the port. This is a legitimate right, and this does not mean that Gaza is independent and different from the West Bank and other Palestinian areas, Gaza is indeed an integral part [of Palestine]. But Gaza should enjoy at least the minimum necessities to live their lives with dignity.

Do not you feel that this demand of yours is a dream that might take a long time to come true, or have you already reached that level?

To this very moment, the Israeli entity has not issued a permit for the reconstruction of the Gaza airport. For your information, the airport was present during the Palestinian authority's rule, but the occupier destroyed the airport completely. There used to be a port that existed even before the occupation of Gaza in 1967. We demand the reopening of the airport and the port. The Israeli entity however has not given ground on this issue.

Were the demands present during the negotiations in Egypt? Did you talk about them?

Yes, these demands were always present at every turn. Sometimes, some progress had been made, but there was not implemented on the ground.

What are the countries that provide help to the reconstruction of Gaza? How much funds do they provide to Gaza? And what is the mechanism?

The first country that tops the funds in terms of providing relief and reconstruction is Qatar. Our brothers in Qatar provide the funds monthly and they have been committed to providing this support for several years now. They have carried out many infrastructure projects within this framework such as building schools, hospitals, residential complexes, and roads. Qatar is certainly the pioneer. Other countries have provided aid, be it Arab or Islamic countries.

Such as?

For example, Egypt has now entered Gaza and has launched many reconstruction projects, they will also build some new residential cities. This is the first time Egypt officially enters Gaza and engages in reconstruction projects. There are other Arab countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Turkey.

Officially?

Yes, through the United Nations or non-governmental organizations. But the only country that directly is engaged in Gaza, as a state, and under its name, is Qatar. And just recently, following the war, Egypt entered the construction projects officially.

On one hand, there is reconstruction taking place in Gaza, but on the other hand, we hear about some sort of war news daily or attacks conducted from within Gaza against Israel. I get the feeling, although the May 2021 war is over, it seems like you have a new tactic for fighting. You want to establish a continued resistance in Gaza, for you to wage attacks against Israel to help you become more powerful at the negotiation table. Do you have new tactics to fight against Israel on a practical level?

First thing, we are always prepared for the worst from the enemy because they are always on standby to stage attacks against our nation and our people, whether in Gaza, the West Bank or in Jerusalem, or even within the occupied Palestine that was seized in 1948, just for example today three people were martyred. We had martyrs in the West Bank, and we had a martyr in the Naqab area that has been occupied since 1948. That is why Gaza always remains the center for confrontation, because of the continued pressure policy and the blockade. Certainly, the Resistance - al-Qassam being the pioneer, within the framework of the buildup of forces has enough capabilities to counter the aggression. The [Palestinian] resistance can address any future threats against our people, especially if once again violation takes place against al-Aqsa mosque at a time the Jewish festivals and the holy month [of Ramadan] coincide.  It is expected that the radical Zionists will organize their commemorations in the yard of the al-Aqsa mosque. They are already preparing to do so. That is why we are directly faced with a situation when the emotions will run high because of the holy month of Ramadan. This depends on how Israel deals with the situation, depends on the Zionist policy, depends on the global pressure forced on Israel to avoid any foolish acts, whether in Jerusalem, al-Shaykh Jarah, the West Bank, Gaza, against the Palestinians of 1948 or our prisoners held in the jails of the Zionist occupation. I say that the Resistance will not stop from becoming more powerful, to acquire the tools of resistance, not even for a second. It also can counter any renewed aggression.

Are you preparing for a new war during this year's Ramadan?

We are not trying to cause a war. We don't want any war, but if a war was imposed on us, we will defend ourselves, and then the occupation will face the full force of our fighters and the mujahidin.

 A continued war, not like the uprising of 1990, 2000, and later the war in 2014 and the war last year. Do you want to inflict damage against Israel daily? I mean a similar model to what the [Iraqi] resistance did or is still doing in Iraq? It is not a standoff war, but are you trying to have a continued resistance?

The resistance continues and is developing. In 2009, the resistance had a certain status. In 2012, another war was ignited, and the performance of the resistance had developed even further, that year the resistance bombed Tel Aviv with the al-Qassam rocket for the first time. In 2014, the resistance's performance and capabilities were higher. In the May war that coincided with the holy month of Ramadan the world saw for itself how the resistance achieved a turning point in terms of its performance, the tools of resistance, the defense plans, how it waged attacks as well as its capacity to defeat the plans of the enemy. That is why our resistance is continuously developing.

Are you ready?

Certainly, the performance of the resistance will be even better compared to last May and we are ready for that as well.

It is here that the Iranian role becomes apparent, to talk about the Iranian role in this conversation because securing the kind of weaponry you have, especially the drones you use and the rockets you fire, is not something that would have been provided by Qatar, Turkey or Saudi Arabia. It appears that Iran is helping you in terms of armament and military. I would like to describe for me the aid and support that the Hamas movement receives from Iran.

Iran for us is the prime and the most significant state in terms of providing military, technical, and financial aid. We receive support from the members of the Islamic and Arab umma (Muslim community), the Arab nations have done their bit, but the vital and strategic necessities are certainly provided by Iran. It is now somewhat difficult to transfer and deploy drones and rockets to Gaza, and that is because of the measures taken by Zionist Israel and because of the security measures put in place by our brothers in Egypt. But the engineers of al-Qassam in Gaza have been able to develop those rockets and drones. No doubt there is good cooperation between our people, the people of our nation as well as Iran. That is why Iran is playing a significant role in providing military, technical, and financial support to the Palestinian resistance.

I understand your statement that goes as saying that you as the people of Palestine own the cause and that you welcome any help provided to you by the Islamic or Arab world and you saying that it is your entitled right. But on the other hand, the fact that Iran is funding you, don't you ask them what is their goal behind such funding? We see in the Middle East that the groups supported by Iran are often used to secure Iranian interests. What does Iran get from you in return?

Let me first explain the relationship with Iran. It is a relationship formed on the basis that the Palestinian cause is the cause of the Arab and Islamic world, is the primary one. We are people living under occupation and therefore we need support from the Arab and the Islamic world, even we need the support of the freedom fighters of the world. That is why we welcome any support from any country whereby its objective is to reinforce our performance and our resistance against the Israeli occupation. This is one side of the story, on the other hand, the Iranian support is not conditional, and they don't have any conditions.

Only for you? The Iranians have not set any conditions for you?

They don't have any conditions for the Hamas movement.

What about, for example, Hezbollah?

There is no evidence proving that conditions have been set for any other force.

Do you despise the fact that your name could be included in the list of the groups who are perceived as Iran's proxies in the Middle East and therefore fight on their behalf?

No, we are in Palestine and our fight is against the Zionism of Israel. We have not sided with one state against another state. We are not part of one axis against another.

Right.

Our framework of relationship is the resistance, Palestine, and the Islamic project within Palestine.

But the armament and military nature of your relationship with Iran puts you in the same basket that includes the Huthis, Hezbollah, and the list of the [Iran-backed] groups in Iraq being a Sunni Islamic group, does this not disturb you?

No, our relationship is with all the parties of the Islamic umma, with Sunnis...we are already part of this broad formation. We are Sunnis and followers of the Shafi school. This is an intellectual issue related to the Sharia and therefore does not have any room for discussion. But at the same time, we believe our Shiite brothers and Iran are also part of this umma and that Iran is an ancient state in the region, a state that has a strategy against the project of the Zionism of Israel and supports the Resistance. These facts are certainly clear and stable as part of the framework of our mutual relations. We might have our differences with this or that state regarding their policies. Iran might practice some policies in this or that country that does not mean that Hamas is complete with those policies

 Which of their policies do you dislike?

The issue of Syria for example. We were in Syria and then we encountered disagreements and finally, we left Syria - this is even though we had a strong base and leadership present in the country. But at some stage, our leadership was convinced that our presence in Syria might have political and security implications and that is why it decided to leave Syria...

How do you assess the Iranian policy in Iraq?

Perhaps this might not have been what our brothers in Iran have wished for, perhaps it was not what our brothers in Syria wanted, but Hamas always makes that decision that best reflects its principles and values.

The Iranian policy in Iraq for example.

But at the same time, Hamas does not translate its disagreements with this or that state regarding some issues in the region into conflict and wars. Our conflict and war are only against the Zionist enemy.

How do you see the Iranian policy in Iraq? Are you with the policy? Do you support it? Do you think what Iran does in Iraq is good?

We believe that it is necessary and crucial for Iraq to stay united and enjoy its sovereignty. Iraq is part of the Arab and Islamic umma. Iraq's status, whether in the past, now, or in the future is seen as a strategic depth for Palestine. Iraq shares an important and great history with the Palestinian cause, it even entered confrontation against the Zionist enemy. Iraq gave martyrs to the cause and their graves are now occupied. We always wish Iraq safety and enjoy full sovereignty and be united while having its will in its hands. We also wish Iraq to have a stable relationship with its Arab and Muslim neighbors including Iraq.

What is the level of your relationship with Turkey? Especially considering the late visit of the Israeli president to Turkey, did it disturb you?

As a matter of principle, we are not in any relationship with the Israeli entity. We are against the normalization process between the Arab and Islamic countries with the Israeli entity. We believe the normalization is bad for the Palestinian cause those countries as well. This stands true for all the states including Turkey. We have stated these concerns in an official statement and raised these concerns in our direct meetings with our brotherly Turkish officials. Indeed, we do not interfere in the internal affairs of other states including Turkey. This is their decision and finally, they are the ones who should shoulder their responsibilities. But we as the people of Palestine, as the Resistance Movement, voice our stance loud and clear.

 Do you condemn it?

We also wish that other countries would not follow suit. So, the language that we use is political. We don't enter any wars against anyone, we don't involve ourselves in a media war against any country, because we don't want to shift away from the focus of our war against the Israeli entity. We don't want to focus our efforts on a war against Turkey, the UAE, Jordan, or Egypt - I mean those countries who have relations with Israel. We voice our stance and views loud and clear. We hope that no other state would follow suit. But after all, we continue and preserve our relations with these states based on mutual interests and common views.

I would like to ask you about the people of Kurdistan and the Kurdish liberation movement. First, as the Hamas movement, what kind of relations do you have with the Kurdistan Region? Because Palestinian authority has a consulate in Erbil. Do you as well have your relations through the consulate, or do you have other channels for such relations with the Kurdistan Region? Is your relationship with the government or with the political parties?

First, allow me to convey my warm greetings to everyone who lives in the Kurdistan Region. I would like to remind everyone of the historical Islamic line that binds the Kurdish and the Palestinians together. Salahaddin al-Ayubi who was one of the members of the Kurdish nation, who are now part of the Iraqi people and part of the Islamic umma, liberated Palestine and liberated Jerusalem from the crusaders. This is part of our history and it is always an honor to have this pride of affinity between the Kurdish and Palestinian people. Thank God we have a good relationship with our brothers in the Kurdistan Region. It is an open relationship and we always have had relations with political and academic figures. We have always witnessed their views clearly [regarding the Palestinian cause]. We witnessed how the people of the Kurdistan Region expressed their sympathy for the people of Gaza during the war and the blockade. Also, during the last war in May last year, they staged a protest and expressed their political and media support for Jerusalem and al-Aqsa mosque - also in support of those who were on strike in al-Aqsa and for Gaza. We witnessed all those actions and we feel proud about it. At the same time, we had a phone call with his excellency president of Iraq who is also from our Kurdish brothers. During the last war, I called him twice during the war in Gaza and his stance was firm and clear, his view was expressive of Iraq generally and especially of our Kurdish brothers. That is why we feel proud about our relationship with the Kurdish people that have roots in history. We feel it is important to develop that relationship with our people in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq. We hope that we can have visits to Iraq and the Kurdistan Region. We are looking forward to the right time, for the preparation to conduct the visit and to hold meetings with the three presidencies, with the groups and the marja’s across the spectrum.

Regarding the right to self-determination for Kurds, as the Palestinian nation who call for the right to self-determination for yourselves, to decide your fate, to decide for yourself about your future, how do you look at the Kurdish right to self-determination in the Middle East?

As a matter of principle, every component in the region and every component of the nations and states should enjoy all their rights, whether political or human rights. They should be present on the map of the components, should not be silenced, should not be marginalized or to be sidelined in the political process. This should also be true for our brothers in the Kurdistan Region, as well as our Kurdish brothers in Syria, Turkey, and Iran. They should enjoy all their rights, just like every other citizen in those countries. On the other hand, it is not for us to make decisions on behalf of our Kurdish brothers regarding their future and fate in those states, on the nature of their relationship in those states. We certainly support what the Kurds believe is the right thing for them. We also welcome internal foundations laid out by those countries that are based on consensus, partnership, and the protection of rights; we look at it as the internal immunity and the protection of rights of the people in the region.

 So, do you believe that Kurds have the right to enjoy the right to self-determination?

I will say it again, we feel proud of our Kurdish brothers. We feel proud of their existence and their history. We are proud that they are an original component of the region. They are part of the umma, and we are proud of their past and present concerning the Palestinian cause. But concerning their decision and the right to self-determination, this is one thing that they must make the decision - and for the decision to be with understanding and consensus with those states they live in.

My last question, I would like to ask you about the attack carried out against Erbil by Iran. How do you see the attack? Do you consider it an aggression against the sovereignty of Iraq and the Kurdistan Region?

It is certainly is a part of the broader conflict in the region. The region is involved in a conflict that is neither easy nor limited, including the conflict between Iran and Israel. The Israeli entity stages attacks in some parts of Syria and elsewhere that it claims are Iranian targets. The Israeli entity and the Americans are always plotting to attack Iranian targets, whether overt or covert attacks. Perhaps Iran would have wanted to respond in kind. It is apparent that the conflicts are bitter and there is an open conflict against Israel in this region. Iran certainly defends itself, its entity, and its capabilities. The [attack in Erbil] is part of this open conflict in this region. I believe the one who should bear the responsibility for mixing all the cards is the Israeli entity. They should not escape the behaviors they conduct in Iraq, Lebanon, or Syria like they are innocent, or with their behaviors in occupied Palestine, or to use the normalization with some countries as bases for staging attacks, to do damage against Arab and Islamic countries.

But why is the conflict played out on the soil of Iraq or the Kurdistan Region? If you tell me about the conflict between Iran and the United States on the soil of Iraq, that I understand, but why is the Iranian-Israel conflict on the soil of Iraq and the soil of the Kurdistan Region? What does Israel have inside the Kurdistan Region of Iraq so that it can have the conflict there?

First, I would like to reiterate that the preservation of Iraq's sovereignty is an important issue and it should be preserved including the sovereignty of the Kurdistan Region. This is a principle that we won't give away. But I don't know if there are Israeli targets within Iraq or the Kurdistan Region that Iran would have targeted. I don't have that information. That put aside, we are against any Israeli presence on any inch of the Arab and Islamic world including Iraq and the Kurdistan Region. This is a principle and I am not saying that Israel is present there. And we don't like to see Israel be present in an inch of the Arab and Islamic world. As I said, I don't have enough information on that incident, what was the target? Iran says so. But as a matter of principle, the sovereignty of Iraq, the sovereignty of the Kurdistan Region, our refusal against the presence of Israel anywhere in the region, and as I said, there is an open ground for conflict in the region. It is a payback conflict and the Israeli entity is responsible for mixing the cards.

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