Francois Hollande, former president of France, speaks to Rudaw TV, February 25, 2019. Photo: Rudaw TV
Francois Hollande, former president of France, came to the Kurdistan Region in late February as the guest of honor at the Shifa Gardi International Award ceremony. He also paid a visit to the northern Iraqi city of Mosul to see the devastation and reconstruction effort for himself.
In an interview with Rudaw during his visit, Hollande discussed the need for ongoing cooperation between the governments of the Kurdistan Region, Iraq, and coalition member states to stabilize the area and stop the resurgence of the Islamic State (ISIS) group, also known as Daesh.
The former president, who held office from 2012 to 2017, committed French forces to the global anti-ISIS coalition. French special forces, artillery, and fighter jets continue to support Kurdish-led forces in eastern Syria has they close in the jihadists’ last holdout.
Hollande is critical of US President Donald Trump’s December announcement he will withdraw US forces from northeast Syria. Doing so risks allowing ISIS to return and clears the way for Turkey to attack Kurdish forces, Hollande warns.
The one-term Socialist Party president also hailed France’s special relationship with the Kurds, and his own friendship with Masoud Barzani, head of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP).
Rudaw: Mr. President, welcome.
Francois Hollande: Hello.
Thank you for being here. Please, monsieur, let’s start with a controversial question, subject of debate ... Daesh’s activities and threats started to reappear in Kirkuk governorate and even in some central Iraqi governorates. America has decided to withdraw its troops from Syria. In Munich, some European leaders said Daesh isn’t over yet. What do you think? Is Daesh finally defeated in Syria and Iraq?
Daesh has been defeated. In a way, we won the war in Iraq and it’s about to be in Syria. But Daesh is still present, at a lower level of course, but still. There are sleeper cells which can be reactivated. That’s why I did not agree with Donald Trump’s decision to withdraw US troops from Syria. There are still some risks for the situation to get worse: Turkey wants to have positions in northern Syria. For everyone’s welfare, if Iraq wants and if Syria requires – I’m not talking about the political regime but about the situation – we should keep the troops on the ground. In Iraq, French troops have weaponry and other pieces of artillery. They have been really useful for Mosul’s liberation. In Syria, we can give Rojava some advice and also provide airstrikes to bomb places where Daesh can reappear. So my answer is really clear: we are not done with Daesh and, until we are, we have to stay in Iraq, if, of course, Iraqi authorities allow us.
Mr. President, recently Mr. Donald Trump said maybe he is going to allow a few troops to remain on the ground. What should we take from this decision?
Well, Mr. Donald Trump has changed his mind a lot. In the first place, he tweeted that he wanted to withdraw all his troops, then he said maybe a few hundred will remain. The US joined a coalition, so decisions have to be made within this coalition and not on a unilateral way. From now on, what I wish is the coalition’s members will decide all together what needs to be done. And for me, some troops have to remain in Syria, maybe a lower number than before – especially for the US – but more effective in our action against Daesh. We have to support the SDF. They’re working on the eradication of Daesh in Syria. And if the coalition decides to withdraw all its troops and gives up on the SDF, the consequences would be terrible for Kurdish people, but also for security. It would be a great opportunity for Daesh to reappear.
Mr. President, you have a great knowledge of global issues, but especially of the Middle East. What threats do Daesh and the other extremist organizations pose to the EU? Many refugees from the Middle East came and still come every day to the EU.
There are still some Daesh fighters who haven’t been caught or killed. They can still hide and then act again. We already know that Daesh is responsible for terrorist attacks in the EU, so with its connections in Iraq and Syria, it can still attack France and the EU. Our interest is to protect ourselves in fighting Daesh at its roots, where its leader is. We have to keep in mind that [Abu Bakr] al-Baghdadi hasn’t been killed and must be in Syria or Iraq ... we don’t know! But the leader of this death machine is still alive and can still attack us. You’re right to say that Daesh isn’t the only enemy. There are other terrorist organizations, like al-Qaeda, which are on the ground in Syria. It is really important to have a wide understanding of the situation and see the reality of terrorism. Daesh is just a descendant of al-Qaeda and al-Qaeda still remains in Syria.
Mr. Hollande, what’s the best way to fight against Daesh? Do we need a global fight in the Middle East and Western countries? In 2001 we discovered that al-Qaeda wanted to attack the US and not only the Middle East.
But Daesh attacked also the EU, not only France! But also Germany, Belgium, Spain. Terrorism doesn’t only strike the Middle East, even if the Middle East paid a high price. We need a global fight because al-Qaeda is also in Africa. That’s why I wanted to act in Mali when I was president. I knew that it might pose a similar threat there: terrorists occupying territories then trying to expand their power in their area and after that to commit terrorist attacks in the EU. We have al-Qaeda and Daesh “nests” in West Africa, in Somalia, in Libya, and sadly in Afghanistan and the Middle East. We have to fight a global fight.
Right now we just have the international coalition which includes 40 countries, but maybe we need other coalitions, in every level! Middle East countries and western countries should be gathered.
Yes we need a wider coalition than the one we created for Iraq and Syria. We need a world coalition which can fight against other threats and has knowledge of other fields than the Middle East. The goal of the coalition mustn’t only be security. It has to fight against terrorism’s causes. To fight terrorism we have to fight against its causes. The coalition must help to rebuild and stabilize Iraq, and do it at the right time in Syria. We have to struggle with underdevelopment, inequalities, and need to have also plans for global warming. It could seem to be two different subjects: global warming and terrorism. But when you have population migration, when people cannot work anymore in their homeland, terrorism can use that misery to recruit soldiers. It happened, sadly, in Africa.
Monsieur, at the beginning of the war against Daesh you were president. When did you decide to participate actively in this fight? Here, Kurdish people think that’s a really brave decision you made.
In summer 2014 I realised that if we didn’t react there was a great risk that Daesh could invade Iraq and then attack Kurdistan from the inside. I had many calls from President Barzani to act when it was still possible to do so, because after it would have been too late. I knew that Iraqi authorities would also participate, so, through me, France decided to intervene. How? Not like in Mali, and sending troops on the ground, but in providing airstrikes to attack Daesh. I also approved weaponry and other pieces of artillery to help with Mosul’s liberation. It was a really important choice because Daesh was willing to strike at France. Those threats convinced me to intensify the airstrikes in Iraq and Syria because I knew that terrorist attacks which struck France had been sponsored from this area.
Mr. President, when Daesh advanced on Erbil, President Barack Obama said it was a red line. What coordination did you have with Barack Obama and other leaders to protect Erbil at this time?
I never used the term “red line” because I didn’t want to make affirmations that couldn’t be realised. But we agreed with President Obama that Erbil and the Kurdistan Region could be an objective for Daesh. That’s why we needed to be coordinated. So this is what happened in 2014. We decided with the US and the international coalition to bring the equipment and support that the Peshmerga needed.
Mr. Hollande, we know that you have a strong relationship with Masoud Barzani. He was and he still is the leader of the KRG but he is also the leader of the Peshmerga. Can you say something about our President Barzani?
F.H: There is a really strong and really old relationship between France and Kurdistan. President Francois Mitterrand and his wife Daniele Mitterrand did a lot for the Kurdish people. We also knew that Kurdistan wanted to work directly with our country. We had many conversations with President Barzani, and I knew him personally. So when he called me in summer 2014, he told me: “We need equipment, we need weapons, because if not the KRG is going to be overwhelmed by Daesh”. I knew it was a sincere call for help and I knew that what he asked for was needed.
You have already welcomed delegations from Rojava, such as the YPG and the PYD. You know France had a decisive role in the war in Syria and in Iraq. What role do the Syrian Kurds have in the war against Daesh?
At the time I was president my government didn’t have any relations with Bashar al-Assad’s regime. He didn’t really fight Daesh. Those who were on the ground to help us in this fight and who permitted the success of our airstrikes were the Syrian Kurds and their Arab allies: the SDF. They had freed Raqqa and Deir ez-Zor. They lost many men and women. That’s why I cannot imagine leaving them like this without any advice, security, and solidarity. And right now it’s still the SDF who are fighting against the last fighters of Daesh.
Mr. President, the situation is really complicated right now because there are threats to the control of northern Syria. Turkey threatens to attack. Syrian Kurds consider Turkey’s intervention as an occupation. What can the EU do about it?
I have to remind you that Turkey is a member of NATO, so it’s an alley. It has an accord with the EU, so we can discuss up front and say what we think. We have to admit that Turkey did a lot for the fight against terrorism. They took in many refugees... But we cannot allow Turkey’s threats against Syrian Kurds. And I’m talking about Kurds from Syria – they are not in Turkey, they are in Syria, the same who fought with us against Daesh. As we fought all together, it’s legitimate to say that Turkey is going to commit a serious offence if she attacks.
We are talking about a security zone in northern Syria. Can the EU play a role in guaranteeing security with the US but maybe without Turkey?
We can, of course, imagine a security zone, and even international protection by the United Nations... But we know that they are out of the game right now. This protection can also be from the US or the international coalition, in order to reassure Turkey there will not be any infiltrations by Syrian Kurds into Turkey, nor Turkish in Syria.
The last question... Daesh committed a lot of massacres in our area, especially with Yezidis. What do you think we should do to rebuild those areas?
Daesh caused major damage. First of all, it’s a human cost... Those people were put in slavery... women have been raped... Christians had also been persecuted... We know what they did to some minorities but also to the Iraqi population... what they did during Mosul’s occupation. I was in Mosul for this reason... the city had been destroyed. So what should we do? Not only condemn this, cry, and give our compassion, but the international community must also provide financial support, companies must come to help all the areas which had been destroyed, and of course support the population, give them services. The Iraqi government must also make decisions to stabilise, to secure, and to rebuilt. Everyone must shoulder part of the responsibility.
In an interview with Rudaw during his visit, Hollande discussed the need for ongoing cooperation between the governments of the Kurdistan Region, Iraq, and coalition member states to stabilize the area and stop the resurgence of the Islamic State (ISIS) group, also known as Daesh.
The former president, who held office from 2012 to 2017, committed French forces to the global anti-ISIS coalition. French special forces, artillery, and fighter jets continue to support Kurdish-led forces in eastern Syria has they close in the jihadists’ last holdout.
Hollande is critical of US President Donald Trump’s December announcement he will withdraw US forces from northeast Syria. Doing so risks allowing ISIS to return and clears the way for Turkey to attack Kurdish forces, Hollande warns.
The one-term Socialist Party president also hailed France’s special relationship with the Kurds, and his own friendship with Masoud Barzani, head of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP).
This February 25 interview was originally conducted in French. Translations by Tessa Robinson.
Rudaw: Mr. President, welcome.
Francois Hollande: Hello.
Thank you for being here. Please, monsieur, let’s start with a controversial question, subject of debate ... Daesh’s activities and threats started to reappear in Kirkuk governorate and even in some central Iraqi governorates. America has decided to withdraw its troops from Syria. In Munich, some European leaders said Daesh isn’t over yet. What do you think? Is Daesh finally defeated in Syria and Iraq?
Daesh has been defeated. In a way, we won the war in Iraq and it’s about to be in Syria. But Daesh is still present, at a lower level of course, but still. There are sleeper cells which can be reactivated. That’s why I did not agree with Donald Trump’s decision to withdraw US troops from Syria. There are still some risks for the situation to get worse: Turkey wants to have positions in northern Syria. For everyone’s welfare, if Iraq wants and if Syria requires – I’m not talking about the political regime but about the situation – we should keep the troops on the ground. In Iraq, French troops have weaponry and other pieces of artillery. They have been really useful for Mosul’s liberation. In Syria, we can give Rojava some advice and also provide airstrikes to bomb places where Daesh can reappear. So my answer is really clear: we are not done with Daesh and, until we are, we have to stay in Iraq, if, of course, Iraqi authorities allow us.
Mr. President, recently Mr. Donald Trump said maybe he is going to allow a few troops to remain on the ground. What should we take from this decision?
Well, Mr. Donald Trump has changed his mind a lot. In the first place, he tweeted that he wanted to withdraw all his troops, then he said maybe a few hundred will remain. The US joined a coalition, so decisions have to be made within this coalition and not on a unilateral way. From now on, what I wish is the coalition’s members will decide all together what needs to be done. And for me, some troops have to remain in Syria, maybe a lower number than before – especially for the US – but more effective in our action against Daesh. We have to support the SDF. They’re working on the eradication of Daesh in Syria. And if the coalition decides to withdraw all its troops and gives up on the SDF, the consequences would be terrible for Kurdish people, but also for security. It would be a great opportunity for Daesh to reappear.
Mr. President, you have a great knowledge of global issues, but especially of the Middle East. What threats do Daesh and the other extremist organizations pose to the EU? Many refugees from the Middle East came and still come every day to the EU.
There are still some Daesh fighters who haven’t been caught or killed. They can still hide and then act again. We already know that Daesh is responsible for terrorist attacks in the EU, so with its connections in Iraq and Syria, it can still attack France and the EU. Our interest is to protect ourselves in fighting Daesh at its roots, where its leader is. We have to keep in mind that [Abu Bakr] al-Baghdadi hasn’t been killed and must be in Syria or Iraq ... we don’t know! But the leader of this death machine is still alive and can still attack us. You’re right to say that Daesh isn’t the only enemy. There are other terrorist organizations, like al-Qaeda, which are on the ground in Syria. It is really important to have a wide understanding of the situation and see the reality of terrorism. Daesh is just a descendant of al-Qaeda and al-Qaeda still remains in Syria.
Mr. Hollande, what’s the best way to fight against Daesh? Do we need a global fight in the Middle East and Western countries? In 2001 we discovered that al-Qaeda wanted to attack the US and not only the Middle East.
But Daesh attacked also the EU, not only France! But also Germany, Belgium, Spain. Terrorism doesn’t only strike the Middle East, even if the Middle East paid a high price. We need a global fight because al-Qaeda is also in Africa. That’s why I wanted to act in Mali when I was president. I knew that it might pose a similar threat there: terrorists occupying territories then trying to expand their power in their area and after that to commit terrorist attacks in the EU. We have al-Qaeda and Daesh “nests” in West Africa, in Somalia, in Libya, and sadly in Afghanistan and the Middle East. We have to fight a global fight.
Right now we just have the international coalition which includes 40 countries, but maybe we need other coalitions, in every level! Middle East countries and western countries should be gathered.
Yes we need a wider coalition than the one we created for Iraq and Syria. We need a world coalition which can fight against other threats and has knowledge of other fields than the Middle East. The goal of the coalition mustn’t only be security. It has to fight against terrorism’s causes. To fight terrorism we have to fight against its causes. The coalition must help to rebuild and stabilize Iraq, and do it at the right time in Syria. We have to struggle with underdevelopment, inequalities, and need to have also plans for global warming. It could seem to be two different subjects: global warming and terrorism. But when you have population migration, when people cannot work anymore in their homeland, terrorism can use that misery to recruit soldiers. It happened, sadly, in Africa.
Monsieur, at the beginning of the war against Daesh you were president. When did you decide to participate actively in this fight? Here, Kurdish people think that’s a really brave decision you made.
In summer 2014 I realised that if we didn’t react there was a great risk that Daesh could invade Iraq and then attack Kurdistan from the inside. I had many calls from President Barzani to act when it was still possible to do so, because after it would have been too late. I knew that Iraqi authorities would also participate, so, through me, France decided to intervene. How? Not like in Mali, and sending troops on the ground, but in providing airstrikes to attack Daesh. I also approved weaponry and other pieces of artillery to help with Mosul’s liberation. It was a really important choice because Daesh was willing to strike at France. Those threats convinced me to intensify the airstrikes in Iraq and Syria because I knew that terrorist attacks which struck France had been sponsored from this area.
Mr. President, when Daesh advanced on Erbil, President Barack Obama said it was a red line. What coordination did you have with Barack Obama and other leaders to protect Erbil at this time?
I never used the term “red line” because I didn’t want to make affirmations that couldn’t be realised. But we agreed with President Obama that Erbil and the Kurdistan Region could be an objective for Daesh. That’s why we needed to be coordinated. So this is what happened in 2014. We decided with the US and the international coalition to bring the equipment and support that the Peshmerga needed.
Mr. Hollande, we know that you have a strong relationship with Masoud Barzani. He was and he still is the leader of the KRG but he is also the leader of the Peshmerga. Can you say something about our President Barzani?
F.H: There is a really strong and really old relationship between France and Kurdistan. President Francois Mitterrand and his wife Daniele Mitterrand did a lot for the Kurdish people. We also knew that Kurdistan wanted to work directly with our country. We had many conversations with President Barzani, and I knew him personally. So when he called me in summer 2014, he told me: “We need equipment, we need weapons, because if not the KRG is going to be overwhelmed by Daesh”. I knew it was a sincere call for help and I knew that what he asked for was needed.
You have already welcomed delegations from Rojava, such as the YPG and the PYD. You know France had a decisive role in the war in Syria and in Iraq. What role do the Syrian Kurds have in the war against Daesh?
At the time I was president my government didn’t have any relations with Bashar al-Assad’s regime. He didn’t really fight Daesh. Those who were on the ground to help us in this fight and who permitted the success of our airstrikes were the Syrian Kurds and their Arab allies: the SDF. They had freed Raqqa and Deir ez-Zor. They lost many men and women. That’s why I cannot imagine leaving them like this without any advice, security, and solidarity. And right now it’s still the SDF who are fighting against the last fighters of Daesh.
Mr. President, the situation is really complicated right now because there are threats to the control of northern Syria. Turkey threatens to attack. Syrian Kurds consider Turkey’s intervention as an occupation. What can the EU do about it?
I have to remind you that Turkey is a member of NATO, so it’s an alley. It has an accord with the EU, so we can discuss up front and say what we think. We have to admit that Turkey did a lot for the fight against terrorism. They took in many refugees... But we cannot allow Turkey’s threats against Syrian Kurds. And I’m talking about Kurds from Syria – they are not in Turkey, they are in Syria, the same who fought with us against Daesh. As we fought all together, it’s legitimate to say that Turkey is going to commit a serious offence if she attacks.
We are talking about a security zone in northern Syria. Can the EU play a role in guaranteeing security with the US but maybe without Turkey?
We can, of course, imagine a security zone, and even international protection by the United Nations... But we know that they are out of the game right now. This protection can also be from the US or the international coalition, in order to reassure Turkey there will not be any infiltrations by Syrian Kurds into Turkey, nor Turkish in Syria.
The last question... Daesh committed a lot of massacres in our area, especially with Yezidis. What do you think we should do to rebuild those areas?
Daesh caused major damage. First of all, it’s a human cost... Those people were put in slavery... women have been raped... Christians had also been persecuted... We know what they did to some minorities but also to the Iraqi population... what they did during Mosul’s occupation. I was in Mosul for this reason... the city had been destroyed. So what should we do? Not only condemn this, cry, and give our compassion, but the international community must also provide financial support, companies must come to help all the areas which had been destroyed, and of course support the population, give them services. The Iraqi government must also make decisions to stabilise, to secure, and to rebuilt. Everyone must shoulder part of the responsibility.
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