Rudaw’s Sangar Abdulrahman spoke with Iraqi Foreign Minister Fuad Hussein on July 23, discussing a wide range of issues, most notably the recent Turkish bombardment on a tourist resort in Duhok’s Zakho district that killed nine Iraqi tourists, as well as government formation efforts in Baghdad and Iran-Saudi meetings mediated by Iraq.
The following transcript has been edited for length and clarity.
Rudaw: After you as the Iraqi government investigated the shelling on Parakh village, do you think there is any need for further investigation or was the investigation you conducted enough to find out the truth?
The truth of the incident is several things. First, the victims, second, the place, third, the military questions, such as where the attack was carried out, where it came from, what kind of weapons were used? All the military questions have been investigated, and the result is known. Information about the martyrs is also known, there are nine martyrs and 31 wounded. The place is also known, so the truth has been revealed.
What is the truth?
As I said, it is partly related to the village and the place, partly related to the people, and partly related to the type of weapon. The weapon used was a 155mm artillery shell. Four shells were fired at the site. The first shell was fired and half an hour later the other three were fired. The type and number of shells are also known. The parts that fell into the hands of military experts were brought to Baghdad and examined, so the number, location, and type of weapon are all known to military experts.
Of the parts you examined, did you conclude that the four artillery shells that were fired at the tourist area were fired by Turkey?
What the military experts told us in their report was that a 155 mm weapon was used, which is used by the Turkish army.
So Turkey has used this weapon before, but was this incident done by Turkey?
According to the information they gave, yes.
But Turkey on several occasions as well as yesterday when the Turkish foreign minister spoke in an interview, they said it was not us, but you say that it was Turkey. How will you come to a conclusion of that? Turkey is calling for a formation of an investigation committee.
They have not called for the formation of a committee. If they request the formation of a committee, it must be requested in formal writing. They must not request an investigation committee, but give an answer as to why these casualties were inflicted and what the situation was, because all the military information that we have received show that it was the Turkish army.
The Iraqi National Security Council met under the chairmanship of Prime Minister Mustafa al-Kadhimi and released eight decisions. Do you think Iraq can implement these decisions?
Regarding the decisions, first of all, Iraq is not going to war nor does it intend to go to war, nor does it accept war or believe in war. Our relations with Turkey must be healthy and proper, based on respect for each other’s territory and people. What is related to diplomacy will be implemented. We have started filing a complaint with the UN Security Council in New York to identify which diplomatic measures we can take.
So you insist about filing a complaint against Turkey at the UN Security Council?
We have started, we started today.
One of the decisions of the Iraqi National Security Council is to be ready to defend. Does this mean that they will not allow Turkey to advance further into the territory of Iraq and the Kurdistan Region?
Both sides should learn from this attack, especially Turkey. Iraq is not like Syria. If there is an intention to make Iraq like Syria, it will be very difficult to intervene in Iraq. It is true that they have come so far, but Turkey must change its policy after this incident. Iraq, in particular, does not intend to do so. It wants to have good relations with Turkey, through dialogue. But the relationship should not be such that they can enter Iraqi territory whenever they want and attack, or whenever they want to conduct military operations inside Iraqi territory.
I say these words while understanding that Turkey has a problem with the PKK [Kurdistan Workers’ Party]. The PKK is a problem for Turkey, but to tell the truth, the PKK is also a problem for Iraq, because the Iraqi constitution does not allow the PKK to be on Iraqi territory and in the Kurdistan Region. It is unacceptable for it to organize its military activities on Iraqi and Kurdistan Region territory and attack another country. So the PKK is a problem for Iraq, but this will not be solved through the way Turkey is attacking. In addition, Turkey’s attacks are threatening the people of Iraq and the Kurdistan Region militarily, geographically, and offensively too. Many civilians have been killed during this period. They often say that they are after the PKK and fighting the PKK, but we see that the fighting has expanded. We see that the places they target are not the places of the PKK. So what is their intention and why do they say that? The final solution is that we should first have a realistic conversation, and second, Turkey should not be in Iraqi territory and the PKK should not be in Iraqi territory. The PKK and Turkey have problems across the border but both have brought their problems into the territory of the Kurdistan Region and Iraq.
The PKK’s exit from Iraqi territory is another one of the eight Iraqi decisions. How will this step be implemented?
I understand the military situation in Iraq, the military situation in Turkey. I know where the PKK is and in which mountains they are. This is not easy. However, there were other foreign military forces in Iraq, but they disappeared from Iraq. We must find a way, but this is Turkey’s job, that is Turkey must find a way to solve the problem itself. The problem should not become a problem between Turkey and Iraq.
If these incidents happen again, will it lead to major problems between Iraq and Turkey?
It is true that Iraq has political and security problems, but Iraq as a country is supported by many countries around the world. This is not to say that Iraq is weak, Iraq can make movements, but Iraq does not want to have problems with any neighboring countries.
Do you mean military or diplomatic movements?
I’m not talking about military movements to be honest. The problems between Iraq and any neighboring country should not be resolved militarily. Military actions are not the solution. This is why I say that it is necessary Turkey does not take the military method to solve problems. Turkey, which has taken the military way, says it is fighting the PKK, but civilians are being targeted.
Was the PKK in the targeted area?
According to the information I have received, the PKK was not in the area.
How will you solve the PKK problem in Iraq?
The problem is Turkey’s problem but it has entered Iraq. We should have a meeting with Turkey, but dialogue is different from military action. This situation cannot be resolved with a security approach. Neither we nor Turkey have been able to solve it through security or military means. They must find another way, and we are ready to meet with Turkey. But now this incident happened and Turkey says it is not us, but then who was it? People have been killed, the village was targeted.
Turkey says it was the PKK.
They say so, but all the information we have received, in every way - the geography of the region, the type of weapon, the distance - everything shows that this was the work of the Turkish army.
There were many reactions in Iraq. One of them was Muqtada al-Sadr who called for cutting off all relations with Turkey, closing the borders with Turkey, and the withdrawal of the Turkish army from Iraq and the end of the security agreement with Turkey. Will Iraq do that?
First of all, Iraq does not have a security agreement with Turkey. This goes back to 1984. Many people, even political analysts, say that there is a security agreement. In 1984, a meeting was held between Tariq Aziz, former Iraqi foreign minister, and the Turkish foreign minister, and in the meeting it first mentioned that Turkey can only enter Iraqi territory to a depth of 5 kilometers. Also, if it enters Iraqi territory, it must inform the Iraqi government beforehand. If it entered Iraqi territory, it must withdraw after 72 hours and return across the border, and this agreement was for duration of one year. There is no security agreement between Iraq and Turkey. I do not know if they talked to a security or military official, but an agreement which is formally written on a paper does not exist between Iraq and Turkey.
Can the borders with Turkey be closed?
I am the foreign minister, my job is not to create problems but to solve problems. The foreign minister’s job is not to encourage soldiers to fight. Iraq should not go to war. Iraq was at war for 50 years, some of which have been civil and some external. Iraq has been at war with itself and others for 50 years. Enough of this culture of war. We must find a way with our neighboring countries, even if they attack us, we do not have to respond with the language of war. But, neighboring countries should not think that Iraq is too weak. Internationally, Iraq has many friends and people express a lot of sympathy for Iraq.
Did any country express sympathy for you?
There hasn’t remained almost any country that hasn’t contacted Iraq. There is no country, especially the West and Arabic and Islamic countries, that didn’t contact Iraq and express their support and solidarity with Iraq. We do not make a lot of movements, but it is necessary that neighboring countries treat Iraq differently, as a country. It is true that Iraq has problems, but they cannot come in whenever they want.
I know what the Turks are talking about in regards to their entry into Iraq. They are talking about two things. First, they say that the PKK is a terrorist organization and that we have the right to go and attack them. Second, they say that we are defending ourselves. Whether it is a terrorist organization or not is another matter. The Iraqi constitution does not allow any organization, including the PKK, to attack a neighboring country from Iraqi territory. This is the duty of the Iraqi side. But Turkey relies on Article 51 of the UN Charter to defend itself, but this is not the case, even if an attack has been carried out. If Iraq carries out an attack on Turkey, that is a real attack, but an attack by an organization on Turkey does not fall within the framework of the UN treaty. Moreover, if Turkey is attacked, it must first go to the Security Council and prove that it has been attacked before going to defend itself, and not to defend itself by entering the Iraqi border. Under the umbrella of the PKK war and the war against ISIS [Islamic State], Turkey has several military bases since 1991 until now in Iraq. Various Iraqi governments have been in talks with Turkey and have tried to resolve this issue through dialogue. But now that this incident has happened, Turkey is talking about a joint committee, but it is only talking about it in the media, they have not sent any official letter, no official apology, or anything.
You summoned the Turkish ambassador to Iraq and gave him a letter of protest telling him that Turkey must apologize, compensate the victims, and withdraw its forces from Iraq. What was the Turkish ambassador’s position on this?
The important thing is that he was given the letter and he will send it to his government. The ambassador can do that, but the position of the Iraqi government is the position of the Iraqi people. Everyone sees it, the Iraqi people had a strong reaction to the attack, and the Iraqi parliament had a very strong reaction to this attack too, they have asked the foreign minister, the defense minister, and military officials to go to the parliament and talk about this situation. This has become an issue of public opinion. Turkey must understand this, this is not a matter for the prime minister, the president, a minister, or a government, and this is a matter of public Iraqi opinion.
But Turkey’s National Security Council yesterday met and decided to continue their operations against the PKK in Iraq.
They are against the PKK, let them continue, but not inside Iraqi territory. The issue is Iraqi territory, Iraq is another country. I think the Iraqi people still have very good relations with Turkey, and we hope the relations will remain good and our job is to maintain and improve these relations with neighboring countries. But this attack has changed Iraqi public opinion, Turkey must understand that the Iraqi people are not the same towards Turkey as they were before Wednesday. Turkey needs to understand this, because if it doesn’t, there will be a lot of problems.
Turkey should ask itself whether it wants to improve or deteriorate its relations with the Iraqi government and the Kurdistan Regional Government [KRG]. If it wants to improve the relations, it will not be improved this way, because as a result, the Kurdistan Regional Government, the Iraqi government, the Iraqi parliament, and the Kurdistan parliament cannot be against their own nation. Now the nation has risen against Turkey. Who can stand against his own nation? Public opinion in Iraq now has a tough stance towards Turkey, and Turkey must understand this and resolve the issue. It cannot resolve the problems by violence against the people. Turkey talks about the PKK but it has targeted people, so how will they accept it?
Have there been any high-level contacts with Turkey since the incident?
No, there has been nothing so far.
After the incident, there was a complaint from the Kurdistan Region that the Iraqi government did not speak out until such an incident happened that targeted Iraqi people. More than 138 Kurdistan Region civilians have been killed in Turkish shelling previously. Why didn’t the Iraqi government speak out like that before?
No, the Iraqi government has always spoken out, but this is a different situation. First, this was a huge slaughterhouse, and second, truthfully this incident was covered in the media. Every Iraqi and non-Iraqi person who cares about Iraq saw the incident. It is likely that the foreign ministry had sent a letter of protest to Turkey over the previous incidents, which have been discussed at the meetings, but this has become an issue for public opinion. This incident has some stories that are very sad. You saw a lot of public reaction, but in fact every time Turkey has done anything to Iraqi civilians, whether Kurdish or any other community, Arab, Christian, or Turkmen, it has had a position, but the position has depended on the nature of the incident. This has become a big issue.
Did you compensate the victims as the Iraqi government?
Turkey has not even sent a letter of condolences yet. Sure, it has talked about it in the media, but believe me there has been no country left that hasn’t sent a condolence letter. Turkey’s ambassador has mentioned it but this does not amount to inviting an ambassador to offer condolences.
Did you also recall the Iraqi charge d'affaires in Ankara?
He came back.
When will he go back?
The embassies will remain. Iraq and Iran had embassies during the war. But Turkey must understand the situation in Iraq as this is a new situation. Turkey should change its behavior on the issue. There should be an open dialogue on Iraq, talks about the PKK, talks about compensation for these people, and talks about the presence of Turkish troops in the Kurdistan Region and Bashiqa near Mosul. Any minister who is the Iraqi foreign minister cannot back down from this issue. Turkey must come forward for this, if it does not, it means that there will be an escalation. Instead of talking about it softly, they decide to continue fighting, this is unacceptable.
We have rarely seen you react so strongly. What was the strong reaction we saw from you at the incident scene?
First of all, I am a human being. I have experienced much in life, tragic events. My life has been in struggle, in politics, in problems, and I have experienced a lot. But what I saw was very different. Stop being responsible or political. You go and see a corpse laying there, a body part, someone’s clothes, and blood. You go to a hospital and you see a young woman, who says I have been married for five days. She came with her husband for their honeymoon. She told me do not give importance to my treatment, but rather attend to my husband. I asked her where is he? She said he is in another hospital and he’s injured. Save my husband. She didn’t know that her husband is dead. A young woman and a young man have been married for five days and have come from southern Iraq, they have come to rest for a few days, and instead of resting, her husband’s body is returned to her. This incident affected everyone.
Turkey needs to understand this. It is not easy for an officer to sit and give orders. There were 500 to 600 people there. There were about 100 coasters there. The Turks themselves have mentioned in many meetings that they can see someone coming out of a cave and going to another place so they strike him, and they did. But is it logical that they did not see 500 to 600 people? Is it logical that they did not see 100 buses parked there? Suppose they struck the first shell wrong, why strike three more shells half an hour later?
Is it possible that the shell was struck by mistake?
I do not know. Was it a local decision? I hope so. I do not believe that it was a government decision, so I always talk about the Turkish army, or the person in charge of that region. But the result was disastrous, the political result is disastrous. You see how people react in Iraq. Their reactions will continue. The political situation in Iraq assists the reactions to continue. The political situation in Iraq is very different now.
The parliament is also different. Turkey needs to understand these things for relations between Baghdad and Ankara to remain good. We do not want that relationship to deteriorate. Turkey has a trade turnover with Iraq worth about $20 billion, all of which is in Turkey’s interest. When some Iraqi political leaders say let’s close the border, this is a big deal. Most of the companies operating in Iraq are Turkish companies, both in the Kurdistan Region and in southern Iraq. If there’s a problem between us, it will be a big loss for the Turkish economy, but Iraq will also lose. The source of the Tigris and Euphrates is in Turkey. We have historical relations with Turkey, geographic, economic, and political. Why should we forget all of this and focus on fighting? There is another way to resolve this issue. The issue of the PKK is not today, it was not formed in Iraq but in Ankara by a group of students. When the PKK started fighting in 1984 it did not start in Iraq, but in Turkey. The PKK came across the border in 1991, when the situation in Iraq deteriorated and there was an uprising the PKK came into the mountains of Iraqi Kurdistan. The PKK was not born in Iraq.
But Turkey says that it is attacking Turkey from Iraq and I have the right to defend myself.
Turkey often says that the PKK is no longer able to reach the border. We all know that, even a child knows that there are various Turkish military bases in Iraq on the border between Iraqi Kurdistan and Turkey. When was the last PKK attack in Turkey? You can protect yourself within your own borders rather than going to other people’s boundaries, for example it has built walls in some places. However, I say that the PKK has no right to be in Iraq, the PKK has no right to operate in Iraq. The problem is neither the problem of the Iraqi Kurds nor the Iraqi Arabs nor the problem of Iraq.
How will you solve the PKK problem in Iraq?
Was it solved by killing and cutting? This is a security issue or a political issue? Let’s be realistic, is the Kurdish issue in Turkey a security or political one? If they have solved it politically then that is good, but it will not be solved through security means. And now they come into Iraqi territory to solve it through security means? There was a Kurdish problem in Iraq. The Iraqi governments did not even recognize the Kurds and used all sorts of weapons against Kurds in Iraq, but what was the result? We have to fix it. I do not have the authority to interfere in Turkey’s political affairs. The PKK is not an Iraqi problem. It is a problem across the border so let them solve it themselves but they cannot enter Iraqi territory. Therefore, I say that after Wednesday’s targeting of these people, Turkey should think differently, and not think with violence, not in Iraqi territory. I do not know in what other territory it is not my issue, but it should not be in Iraqi territory.
Regarding the issue of forming a government, the Coordination Framework says that we are waiting for Kurds to form a government. You were in Sulaimani and met Bafel Talabani, and afterwards you came with Bafel Talabani and met President Barzani. Will the KDP [Kurdistan Democratic Party] and the PUK [Patriotic Union of Kurdistan] reach an agreement?
I am currently the head of the delegation in Baghdad to form a government. We will make every effort to reach an agreement between the KDP and the PUK. I hope they reach an agreement, and I will work for that. I am sure they will reach an agreement in the end.
Your first option is reaching an agreement, if they do not reach an agreement what will be the other options?
I only have the first option.
Will they reach an agreement on the President of the Republic?
The issue of the KDP and PUK is not only that of the President of the Republic. The KDP and PUK have had conflicts in history, but they also have a common history and have worked together. Look at the stage of this relationship between the KDP and PUK. Whenever they have met, they have succeeded in everything, whether in terms of security or military, political or legal or constitutional in Baghdad or anywhere else. Whenever they have had conflicts and opposed each other, we see that not only have they failed, but they have gone backwards. There is no other solution for the KDP and PUK, they must be together. The reunification is not only about Baghdad, it is also about Kurdistan.
It was mentioned that during your visit to Sulaimani and your meeting with Bafel Talabani, the KDP had some new proposals for an agreement with the PUK. What are the KDP’s proposals?
I had a meeting for about six to seven hours. Many issues were discussed, if you give me permission, I cannot discuss everything because the negotiation process continues. It is not unlikely that Mr. Bafel comes to Baghdad soon and we will go back to Kurdistan again.
Do you have time left? Because the Coordination Framework requires the Kurds to agree urgently.
The Coordination Framework has not agreed yet. I was in the meeting of the political leaders until 11 pm yesterday. Today I was also in a meeting with many political leaders of the Framework. They have not solved their problems yet, and I am saying this as a politician, not as a foreign minister. Some are optimistic that we will reach a conclusion in the next two or three days, some are not so optimistic. The Kurds still have some negotiations between the two sides. I hope that there will be clarity in working together next week.
Is there any proposal for a joint candidate and not Barham Salih or Reber Ahmed?
Until now, both sides have only picked these two candidates.
Is there a motion of getting closer on a joint candidate?
I do not know.
Didn’t the last two meetings give you any clarity?
There is still time. There must be clarity and the KDP and PUK and they must reach an agreement. I do not know how the agreement is.
If they do not reach an agreement, will the 2018 scenario be repeated where KDP and PUK sent two candidates to the parliament?
I do not believe both sides will go that way. I believe both sides will reach an agreement.
Will the PDK agree to resolve the issue in parliament if they do not reach an agreement.
I would say that both sides will reach an agreement.
I am talking about a plan B.
We do not have a plan B. I think of a plan B many times, but this time I do not think of a plan B.
Who do the Kurds prefer to be the prime minister of Iraq?
As a tradition in the country, the tradition is that the representatives of the components sit down and appoint someone, as the Sunnis went and appointed Mr. Halbousi for speaker of parliament, the Shiites appoint someone as prime minister and the Kurds appoint someone as president. But it does not mean that only the voice of Shiites or Sunnis or Kurds will only exist, the so-called national umbrella must exist, which means that when the Shiites nominate someone, they must talk to the Kurds and Sunnis before bringing him into parliament, and the Kurds must do the same as the Sunnis did. That is, a national umbrella is necessary for anyone, whether he is prime minister, president, or speaker of parliament, because as a result, although the components appoint him, he will become the prime minister of all components, of the country. He will become the representative of all Iraq and not just a component.
Are you moving towards forming a government, or as its being said a government may not be formed and you will move towards another election?
There is an attempt not to form a government until an election is held, but if the government is not formed, it means this government will remain. This means that after a year, a year and a half, or two years early elections will not be held and we will reach ordinary elections. This will take one or two years. Then, this is a question for the political forces – if this government remains with half the powers, without the powers to send the budget law as it is a caretaker government – this will be bad for the country. Iraq now has a lot of revenue because of rising oil prices, but you cannot spend that much revenue in the bank. Everything has become more expensive because of the war in Ukraine – food, medicine, and everything else is more expensive – this creates a problem for the people. If there is no budget law, what minister, what ministry and what government can act? Because that is the caretaker government. We want a government with power, a government with reforms. However, there is this idea with many that this government will continue until elections.
In which direction do you think the situation will go? Will the government be formed or will this continue?
If the Shiites reach an agreement on the prime minister, the government will be formed. I mean the Coordination Framework, because the Sadrist Movement is now outside the political process.
What are Iraq’s efforts to bring Iran and Saudi Arabia closer together and what will be the next steps?
There have been five meetings between Saudi Arabia and Iran so far. The meetings were at the level of intelligence and security agencies, but this time when we went to Saudi Arabia where we met with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman he said that we want the Saudi foreign minister to meet with Iran in Baghdad. I called the Iranian foreign minister and he even announced it, I think yesterday. We are now very busy trying to find time to invite the Saudi foreign minister and the Iranian foreign minister and they will meet openly, because the other meetings were closed, the meetings were between intelligence and security leaders, but now they will be open between the two foreign ministers.
Did both sides agree to meet in Iraq?
Yes, Iraq is mediating them. All the meetings were held in Iraq.
I mean the two foreign ministers, will they meet in Iraq?
Yes.
