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Interview
Nadine Maenza, United States commissioner for religious freedom, speaks with Rudaw’s Karwan Faidhi Dri at Erbil’s Rotana Hotel on November 21, 2020. Photo: Bilind T. Abdullah/Rudaw
ERBIL, Kurdistan Region – Nadine Maenza, United States commissioner for religious freedom, said she was surprised to see how consistent conditions in northeast Syria (known to Kurds as Rojava) were in terms of religious freedom and gender equality during her weeks-long trip to the region.
Maenza arrived in Rojava in late October and stayed for several weeks, meeting with officials of the Kurdish-led Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria (NES), on a trip not sponsored by the US Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) where she is a commissioner. She is now in the Kurdistan Region capital where she is meeting with a number of top officials, and sat down for an interview with Rudaw English on Saturday.
During her tour of Rojava, she was surprised by the inclusion of minorities in local government and said she would give Rojava perfect marks for religious freedom.
“There is no restriction on the rights to practice your faith,” she said. “Part of the reason I wanted to come and stay for so long was to understand how they set up the government, how it works and could this be something that other people can do in other places.”
The US has some 900 troops in Rojava. There are fears from locals that any withdrawal of these forces would be followed by a new military offensive by Turkey and its Syrian proxies. Maenza said USCIRF’s reports and information they have shared with US officials have contributed to Washington’s decisions on troops numbers in northeastern Syria.
“I definitely think it has had influence on that and it has been made clear to us that at this point of time the US is not pulling troops,” she said.
The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.
RUDAW: What was the most interesting thing you saw from Rojava after meeting people from different backgrounds?
Nadine Maenza: I think the most interesting thing I saw was the consistency of conditions. People have the right to freedom, whether they live in the majority Kurdish area or majority Arab area. I was surprised how consistent the conditions were for religious freedom and, really, I would say gender equality as well.
What about Kurds? What was the most interesting thing you saw about them?
Just how they fostered this environment. Self-governance started in Kurdish areas, so I think the untold story of what happened in northeast Syria and how they set up the self-governance that supports religious freedom and gender equality. And certainly that has started in Kurdish areas, after the SDF liberated areas from ISIS, they would set up self-governance. I was trying to remind people they [SDF] did not impose governance, they allowed the people to set up the governance where they have co-chairs – a man and a woman. They set up all these committees and they start literally meeting the needs of the community. They did it in a way that promoted ethnic diversity, religious diversity, acceptance of one another… It created conditions that are unique to the rest of the Middle East.
You also went to Raqqa, one of the previous strongholds of ISIS, which persecuted religious minorities. What did you feel when you arrived there?
It was remarkable to me that what were the worst conditions for religious minorities and women three years ago, are the best conditions for religious minorities and women in the Middle East. How in three short years this should happen in a place like Raqqa… So, I was very excited about how the government there is so strong. They have figured out how to get people services, and women’s groups are so strong. The legal system there protects people’s rights. The thing about the [Rojava] government is that they have done more than just having tolerance seminars, encourage tolerance. They have embedded it in the legal system and governance. That’s why these conditions are so pervasive throughout the entire region.
Some people, such as Arabs, complain that they have been marginalized by the autonomous administration. You were there, what did people tell you about this?
I probably spent as much time in Arab areas as the Kurdish areas because I felt like it is important to find out what is happening in Arab areas. The thing I think about the self-governance is that people need to understand that self-governance means that people in that area are the ones governing. So, obviously, in Arab areas it is Arabs. This idea that the Kurds are somehow imposing their rights in Arab areas isn’t the case. The Arabs are running the Arab areas. So, I was able to talk to them and get their perspective on how the [Rojava] government is making progress. But I want to mention that in Arab areas you still have people left over, obviously from the ISIS times. Some people are sympathetic to ISIS but there are also people sympathetic to the regime. There are different forces that are going to say that they are not working.
Ethnic or religious equality works well in Rojava?
I think both because there are some areas, like Arabs areas, where they do not have a lot of religious diversity because the Christians were forced to leave, the Yezidi minorities left during ISIS years and a few have come back. And I know, for instance in Tabqa, they wanted the Christians to come back and they have saved 25 homes of Christians. They started to come back and I think seven families returned, but Turkey invaded. The Christians became concerned about the instability and it stopped them from returning again. In those areas, you see more ethnic diversity.
What I found… was that you will see that a commune where the co-chairmen or the chair would be an Arab and a Kurd and the vice-chair would be a Circassians and a Turkman. Even though they have tiny percentages, they get a representation. The administration makes sure that every ethnicity has a voice. That surprised me because no one had prepared me for how ethnic diversity had been worked into the governance as well.
A new report from the USCIRF is expected to be published in April. How much of your findings will be reflected in the report?
I think it will be a lot of what I am saying now… Honestly, my findings are just consistent with what we had heard before and found before. So I will say I have more details, but they are consistent with the information we have been getting about northeast Syria in the [last] couple of years.
Will new people from USCIRF come to prepare the report or you will share your findings with them?
We may do a different report, an additional report, on my trip to northeast Syria.
So part of your findings will be included in the report?
Part of it will be in the report, but part of it may be in some other independent reports. We do a lot of those kinds of things at the commission.
According to my understanding, you may turn your findings into a book. Am I correct?
Maybe… I have not decided.
There is fear among locals, especially in Ain Issa, that Turkey may launch a new military offensive against the SDF there. What did people tell you about this?
Yeah, I heard the same thing that a lot of people fear, there is a lot of fear from the Administration, a lot of fear among citizens. But we know Turkey is in a lot of places, doing a lot of things. So, although it is not the case, there is definitely fear.
What did they request of you?
Most of the time it was just to share what I saw. I didn’t really get a lot of requests other than telling Americans what it is like here. Our recommendations for the US commission are really Rojava autonomous administration recommendations, which is to give them political recognition, lift sanctions, include them in political solutions for all Syria, pressure Turkey to withdraw.
What can Rojava people expect from you? What can your trip produce for them?
I think the most important thing that I can do for everybody, and we have already been doing, is briefing key members of the [US] administration, key members of Congress. I have already spoken with some really important folks. Some of the top people in the administration plan to talk to me in the coming weeks. I think the most important part of the work we do is the private stuff. We are sharing information privately. I think some of that will be some of the most important work we do. The administration makes sure they also have the same information.
Do you think your report and the information you share with US officials affects their foreign policy to stay longer in Rojava?
Yes, absolutely. I have no doubt that we have influenced that decision. People have an understanding of the costs of pulling out troops, what it would mean for religious minorities, what would it mean for Syria, and for this whole area. I definitely think it has had influence on that and it has been made clear to us that at this point of time the US is not pulling troops.
Is your trip to the Kurdistan Region a completion of your trip to Rojava?
I have met with Christians from Nineveh Plains, I have met with Yezidis, I have met with Turkmens, I have met with the Baha'is, I went to their center… I am really more listening here than anything and just trying to understand what is happening, what is the way forward in some of the difficult places like the Nineveh Plains and Sinjar.
Are you going to Iraq-controlled areas as well?
I am not going past Erbil on this trip but I hope next time I can go further down to those areas.
How do you compare religious freedom in the Kurdistan Region and Iraq?
You know, it is just different. I think people have the right to practice their faith… In northeast Syria, people can change their religion but in Iraq that is difficult. I think Iraqi laws make a lot of things difficult. Obviously, Kurdistan has done an amazing job with religious freedom. They have been a refuge for all Christians and Yezidis fleeing from the Nineveh Plains and Sinjar… I do think they do not get enough credit for all the work they have done to support religious minorities.
Okay, back to Rojava. You hear many positive things about the Rojava administration. What about complaints? What negative things did you see there?
Some people say something is not working and they are not being heard and they do not receive a seat at the table, or whatever. You hear that everywhere.
Do they include Assyrians?
They do absolutely. The problem with Christians is that some of them are afraid to join the [Rojava] government because they are afraid that the Assad regime will come back. They fear to support the Administration without recognition… but they all admit that the conditions were remarkable for Christians there and they were thankful for that.
How much would you give Rojava out of ten for religious freedom?
Ten! That’s what is so interesting. There is no restriction on the rights to practice your faith. In Arab areas, you have seen that growing in those areas which were under ISIS years ago. So, they are definitely onto something. That could be a model for setting up in other places but there has been conflict. Part of the reason I wanted to come and stay for so long was to understand how they set up the government, how it works and could this be something that other people can do in other places.
Maenza arrived in Rojava in late October and stayed for several weeks, meeting with officials of the Kurdish-led Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria (NES), on a trip not sponsored by the US Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) where she is a commissioner. She is now in the Kurdistan Region capital where she is meeting with a number of top officials, and sat down for an interview with Rudaw English on Saturday.
During her tour of Rojava, she was surprised by the inclusion of minorities in local government and said she would give Rojava perfect marks for religious freedom.
“There is no restriction on the rights to practice your faith,” she said. “Part of the reason I wanted to come and stay for so long was to understand how they set up the government, how it works and could this be something that other people can do in other places.”
The US has some 900 troops in Rojava. There are fears from locals that any withdrawal of these forces would be followed by a new military offensive by Turkey and its Syrian proxies. Maenza said USCIRF’s reports and information they have shared with US officials have contributed to Washington’s decisions on troops numbers in northeastern Syria.
“I definitely think it has had influence on that and it has been made clear to us that at this point of time the US is not pulling troops,” she said.
The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.
RUDAW: What was the most interesting thing you saw from Rojava after meeting people from different backgrounds?
Nadine Maenza: I think the most interesting thing I saw was the consistency of conditions. People have the right to freedom, whether they live in the majority Kurdish area or majority Arab area. I was surprised how consistent the conditions were for religious freedom and, really, I would say gender equality as well.
What about Kurds? What was the most interesting thing you saw about them?
Just how they fostered this environment. Self-governance started in Kurdish areas, so I think the untold story of what happened in northeast Syria and how they set up the self-governance that supports religious freedom and gender equality. And certainly that has started in Kurdish areas, after the SDF liberated areas from ISIS, they would set up self-governance. I was trying to remind people they [SDF] did not impose governance, they allowed the people to set up the governance where they have co-chairs – a man and a woman. They set up all these committees and they start literally meeting the needs of the community. They did it in a way that promoted ethnic diversity, religious diversity, acceptance of one another… It created conditions that are unique to the rest of the Middle East.
You also went to Raqqa, one of the previous strongholds of ISIS, which persecuted religious minorities. What did you feel when you arrived there?
It was remarkable to me that what were the worst conditions for religious minorities and women three years ago, are the best conditions for religious minorities and women in the Middle East. How in three short years this should happen in a place like Raqqa… So, I was very excited about how the government there is so strong. They have figured out how to get people services, and women’s groups are so strong. The legal system there protects people’s rights. The thing about the [Rojava] government is that they have done more than just having tolerance seminars, encourage tolerance. They have embedded it in the legal system and governance. That’s why these conditions are so pervasive throughout the entire region.
Some people, such as Arabs, complain that they have been marginalized by the autonomous administration. You were there, what did people tell you about this?
I probably spent as much time in Arab areas as the Kurdish areas because I felt like it is important to find out what is happening in Arab areas. The thing I think about the self-governance is that people need to understand that self-governance means that people in that area are the ones governing. So, obviously, in Arab areas it is Arabs. This idea that the Kurds are somehow imposing their rights in Arab areas isn’t the case. The Arabs are running the Arab areas. So, I was able to talk to them and get their perspective on how the [Rojava] government is making progress. But I want to mention that in Arab areas you still have people left over, obviously from the ISIS times. Some people are sympathetic to ISIS but there are also people sympathetic to the regime. There are different forces that are going to say that they are not working.
Ethnic or religious equality works well in Rojava?
I think both because there are some areas, like Arabs areas, where they do not have a lot of religious diversity because the Christians were forced to leave, the Yezidi minorities left during ISIS years and a few have come back. And I know, for instance in Tabqa, they wanted the Christians to come back and they have saved 25 homes of Christians. They started to come back and I think seven families returned, but Turkey invaded. The Christians became concerned about the instability and it stopped them from returning again. In those areas, you see more ethnic diversity.
What I found… was that you will see that a commune where the co-chairmen or the chair would be an Arab and a Kurd and the vice-chair would be a Circassians and a Turkman. Even though they have tiny percentages, they get a representation. The administration makes sure that every ethnicity has a voice. That surprised me because no one had prepared me for how ethnic diversity had been worked into the governance as well.
A new report from the USCIRF is expected to be published in April. How much of your findings will be reflected in the report?
I think it will be a lot of what I am saying now… Honestly, my findings are just consistent with what we had heard before and found before. So I will say I have more details, but they are consistent with the information we have been getting about northeast Syria in the [last] couple of years.
Will new people from USCIRF come to prepare the report or you will share your findings with them?
We may do a different report, an additional report, on my trip to northeast Syria.
So part of your findings will be included in the report?
Part of it will be in the report, but part of it may be in some other independent reports. We do a lot of those kinds of things at the commission.
According to my understanding, you may turn your findings into a book. Am I correct?
Maybe… I have not decided.
There is fear among locals, especially in Ain Issa, that Turkey may launch a new military offensive against the SDF there. What did people tell you about this?
Yeah, I heard the same thing that a lot of people fear, there is a lot of fear from the Administration, a lot of fear among citizens. But we know Turkey is in a lot of places, doing a lot of things. So, although it is not the case, there is definitely fear.
What did they request of you?
Most of the time it was just to share what I saw. I didn’t really get a lot of requests other than telling Americans what it is like here. Our recommendations for the US commission are really Rojava autonomous administration recommendations, which is to give them political recognition, lift sanctions, include them in political solutions for all Syria, pressure Turkey to withdraw.
What can Rojava people expect from you? What can your trip produce for them?
I think the most important thing that I can do for everybody, and we have already been doing, is briefing key members of the [US] administration, key members of Congress. I have already spoken with some really important folks. Some of the top people in the administration plan to talk to me in the coming weeks. I think the most important part of the work we do is the private stuff. We are sharing information privately. I think some of that will be some of the most important work we do. The administration makes sure they also have the same information.
Do you think your report and the information you share with US officials affects their foreign policy to stay longer in Rojava?
Yes, absolutely. I have no doubt that we have influenced that decision. People have an understanding of the costs of pulling out troops, what it would mean for religious minorities, what would it mean for Syria, and for this whole area. I definitely think it has had influence on that and it has been made clear to us that at this point of time the US is not pulling troops.
Is your trip to the Kurdistan Region a completion of your trip to Rojava?
I have met with Christians from Nineveh Plains, I have met with Yezidis, I have met with Turkmens, I have met with the Baha'is, I went to their center… I am really more listening here than anything and just trying to understand what is happening, what is the way forward in some of the difficult places like the Nineveh Plains and Sinjar.
Are you going to Iraq-controlled areas as well?
I am not going past Erbil on this trip but I hope next time I can go further down to those areas.
How do you compare religious freedom in the Kurdistan Region and Iraq?
You know, it is just different. I think people have the right to practice their faith… In northeast Syria, people can change their religion but in Iraq that is difficult. I think Iraqi laws make a lot of things difficult. Obviously, Kurdistan has done an amazing job with religious freedom. They have been a refuge for all Christians and Yezidis fleeing from the Nineveh Plains and Sinjar… I do think they do not get enough credit for all the work they have done to support religious minorities.
Okay, back to Rojava. You hear many positive things about the Rojava administration. What about complaints? What negative things did you see there?
Some people say something is not working and they are not being heard and they do not receive a seat at the table, or whatever. You hear that everywhere.
Do they include Assyrians?
They do absolutely. The problem with Christians is that some of them are afraid to join the [Rojava] government because they are afraid that the Assad regime will come back. They fear to support the Administration without recognition… but they all admit that the conditions were remarkable for Christians there and they were thankful for that.
How much would you give Rojava out of ten for religious freedom?
Ten! That’s what is so interesting. There is no restriction on the rights to practice your faith. In Arab areas, you have seen that growing in those areas which were under ISIS years ago. So, they are definitely onto something. That could be a model for setting up in other places but there has been conflict. Part of the reason I wanted to come and stay for so long was to understand how they set up the government, how it works and could this be something that other people can do in other places.
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