On June 5, two teams from a Peshmerga mine-clearing unit were traveling in the Amedi region of northern Duhok province. They came under attack and five were killed in possible rocket fire. The Peshmerga ministry blamed the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), saying their teams had fallen into a PKK trap on Mount Metina. The president of the Kurdistan Region called for a “limit” on the PKK in the Kurdistan Region.
The PKK denied they fired the fatal strike, but admitted to firing into the air, warning shots as the Peshmerga neared their position. The PKK is engaged in clashes with the Turkish army which launched two military operations against the PKK in northern Duhok province in April.
Relations between the PKK and the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP), the ruling party in Duhok, have been tense for decades. The five Peshmerga deaths was the latest incident stoking fears of an intra-Kurdish war.
A senior official in a PKK umbrella organization said the group is “ready for dialogue” with the KDP.
“We want all the issues between Kurdish parties and organizations to be resolved through dialogue,” Zubeyir Aydar, a member of the board of directors of the Kurdistan Communities Union (KCK), told Rudaw in an interview two days before the Peshmerga were killed.
War between Kurds “is a red line,” he said.
The following is a translation of the full interview conducted on June 3, 2021.
The PKK was founded over 40 years ago. Each decade, it has had a different policy, especially after the arrest of its leader Abdullah Ocalan. What is the current policy of the PKK, compared to the past? Has it changed? If yes, what changes have been made?
The PKK is a dynamic force. It is true that the movement, led by Leader Apo [Ocalan], is not like before. When it began its activities as a group in 1973 and the party was founded in 1978, they consisted of a group of youths in Kurdistan [Kurdish areas in Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria]. Leftism was dominant in Kurdistan. There were two poles in the world: NATO and the Warsaw [Pact led by] the Soviet Union. There was a leftist atmosphere in the region and Kurdish youth were affected by it. PKK was founded based on this situation. Then the world changed: the Soviet Union was divided and the movement that was formed under the leadership of Leader Apo better understood the reality in Kurdistan. It is not compulsory for it to stay the same, as it is a dynamic force. It acts as per the facts on the ground, but its objective – to liberate all the people of the whole of Kurdistan, not only one part – remains the same.
However, ideologically, PKK is no longer a Marxist-Leninist force, although it is leftist. It has created its own ideology and its theorist is Leader Apo, who has developed the Democratic Nation and Democratic Confederalism – an ecological and free society that has gender equality. It [PKK] wants to create an ethical-political society. This is a very broad area. This issue is different and cannot be affected by the arrest [of Ocalan] or other issues. The issue depends on the needs and the situation in the world. The organization’s understanding, led by Leader Apo, about statehood, power, democracy, society and gender is a broad subject that is open to discussion.
To understand the ideology of the PKK, one has to read Leader Apo’s books, especially the five volumes of his last book that were published in late 2009 and are a broad paradigm. The first volume talks about the emergence of civilization, the second volume is about capitalist civilization and criticizes it, the third volume is about societal freedom and how to confront capitalism, the fourth volume evaluates the Middle East and how to democratize it, and the fifth volume – the most detailed one – is about a solution for Kurdistan where the historical, political and societal situation of Kurdistan is evaluated and a solution is proposed. If one wants to understand the PKK and Leader Apo’s movement, they should read these carefully. There are other things, but this is the principal. All PKK members are trained based on this theory.
The theory is a Kurdistani one, written by a Kurd. The theory can be applied not only in Kurdistan but everywhere. Therefore, people around the globe – Latin America, Africa, North America, Asia, Europe and everywhere – come and want to understand this theory. They have been trained. Why did all these people go to Rojava? The issue was not related to Kurdishness or the Daesh [Islamic State] war. They came to see [the PKK’s ideology] in practice. They are still here. This is like a universal system and it should be seen and understood like this. It is not true that the PKK changes itself every decade. PKK, under the leadership of Leader Apo, offers a new paradigm to society and humanity in accordance with the situation in Kurdistan and the world.
How are relations between PKK/KCK and Kurds in Turkey? Murat Karayilan said in a recent interview that recruitment of new people has become somewhat difficult because of constant military operations by the Turkish government. Is the relationship strong or has it weakened due to Turkey’s restrictions?
The Freedom Movement in general, led by the KCK, has had a great impact in Northern Kurdistan [Kurdish areas in Turkey] and other parts. There has not been any decrease in sympathy and support, but an increase. Regarding your question that our comrade Mr. Karayilan has said that we have faced obstacles for recruitment, he did not mean obstacles recruiting people to the ranks of the party, but obstacles before those people who want to join the HPG [People’s Defense Forces] military force. Do not get it wrong. The Freedom Movement has a good connection with the people of Kurdistan in general and there has not been any issue in this regard. PKK is not merely an armed force but a political, societal, and popular force as well. It should be seen like this. Its main force among the people is the strongest. The Freedom Movement is not limited to the PKK, but is a broad system.
Despite all the attacks by the state, the arrest of the politicians, the fleeing of scores of people, the confiscation of Kurdistan's municipalities and the jailing of parliamentarians, the HDP is the third largest party in Turkey. Why? Because Kurds support the Freedom Movement. According to all the surveys conducted recently, the HDP votes have not decreased, but increased. This has made the Turkish state very uncomfortable. Therefore, it wants to close the HDP by filing a lawsuit against it and distance Kurds from politics.
We know there are plenty of people who want to join the HPG, but there have been obstacles in how to do that. This is a different subject. However, the support and affiliation of people has faced no issue – it is increasing rather than decreasing.
The peace process between the Turkish state and the PKK in 2013 led to achievements for Kurds. There was peace and the government crackdown was limited. There was a sort of democracy. If there is the chance for another peace process in Turkey, would you accept it? What are your conditions? Do you think such a process is possible amid Turkey’s renewed operations?
The failure of the Oslo and Imrali talks was not because of our movement. The Turkish state was not ready for a solution. It needed to buy some time and suspend the war in order to prepare for war because they have internal issues. This is something different. We do not ask who was responsible [for the failure].
During the Imrali talks, the state negotiated with Leader Apo. This is how it began. Leader Apo was the center. When the state wanted this process to fail, it closed the doors to Imrali and suspended meetings with Leader Apo, resuming war. This is something clear and this fact has to be noticed. Meetings with Leader Apo have been suspended since April 5, 2015 and the process ended.
On July 24 [2015], they resumed attacks on the [anniversary of the Treaty of] Lausanne. They meant to say that they own Lausanne, Kurdistan does not exist, Kurdistan will stay divided and we have no rights. They wanted to convey this message in the attack. The team who ended the talks at the time and began the attacks have been carrying out an intense war from Northern Kurdistan to Southern Kurdistan for six years. It is this team, led by [Recep] Tayyip Erdogan, [Nationalist Movement Party] MHP and Ergenekon, that governs Turkey.
The Freedom Movement has principles when it comes to peace. I mean Leader Apo and his friends have principles. It always wants to resolve this issue through dialogue and peacefully, rather than through weapons. The fact that Kurds have taken up guns is because they are defending themselves from attacks. They do not have the opportunity to resolve issues through dialogue and peace [...] Kurds want to resolve issues through dialogue, but we do not see such an opportunity now as the Turkish state or regime sees all Kurdish achievements as threats and wants to prevent them.
We believe it is not possible to hold talks with this current regime – the coalition of Erdogan, MHP and Ergenekon. They are not ready for dialogue and democracy. They are against all democratic forces in Turkey, not only Kurds. They have established a dictatorial system in Turkey where Erdogan is the only ruler. No one can say that democracy and [human] rights exist there, only dictatorship. The forces who call for change, democracy, and peace should work to end this regime so that a new and democratic system is established. We as the Movement do not see any change because they only understand war. Our decision is to resist their attacks and we want the creation of a democratic front with Turkey’s democratic forces to end this regime.
How do you see your relations with the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP)? What level are they at?
Unfortunately, our relations with the KDP are not as per expectations. The relations are not like those of two Kurdistani forces who can discuss everything and join forces and coordinate against the enemy. However, the relations are not too bad as well. We say that all Kurdistani forces should be involved in dialogue and issues should be resolved through dialogue. We should be specifically united against invading enemies. The Turkish state has been attacking the South [Kurdistan Region] since April 24, which coincides with the 106th anniversary of the Armenian genocide. Its goal in Southern Kurdistan is to reverse all of its achievements, remove Kurds from the scene and massacre them. This is a message of genocide against Kurds.
Now, as shown on your TV, they destroy the South, burn the area and evacuate villages. They have also controlled the Region, cutting and looting its trees. It [Turkey] is the enemy of all Kurds in the South and West [northeast Syria or Rojava] and East [Kurdish areas in Iran], not only the enemy of the PKK or the Kurds of the South. Therefore, Kurdistani forces have to join forces against invasion and these attacks. This is how our relations should be, not only against Turkey but all invaders. We should be united against all threats against Kurdistan. However, unfortunately our relations with the KDP are not at this level.
Your relations with the KDP have been tense recently, including fighting. Is there a chance for you both to sit down together and normalize your relations? If yes, what would be your demands of the KDP? Are you willing to compromise to KDP’s demands such a change in your policy, including a decrease in your attacks in the Kurdistan Region and the withdrawal of your forces from the Region?
As I said earlier, we are ready for dialogue. We want all the issues between Kurdish parties and organizations to be resolved through dialogue. I hope these issues will not lead to a point at which Kurdistani forces confront one another with weapons. This is a red line and should not happen anywhere. Therefore, we support dialogue and all issues should be resolved through dialogue. There have been dialogues.
Regarding what we want from the KDP and what it wants from us, this can be discussed at the negotiating table. This should not be discussed in the media. When we meet, our demands will be clear and they know what their demands are. Meetings cannot be held based on one party’s willingness, but both. As each takes a step forward, they will get closer to each other. I want to note that all our demands for the KDP will be in the interests and unity of the people of Kurdistan and we will call for the unity of these people against the enemy. We will act in the spirit of patriotism and the interests of the people of Kurdistan... We can discuss everything at the table and reach a result.
KDP and others call for the withdrawal of foreign forces from the Kurdistan Region. They describe the PKK as a foreign force and call for its withdrawal. What is your response to them? Do you consider yourselves as a foreign force or one that co-owns the Region?
PKK is not a foreign force, but a Kurdistani one. Kurdistani forces are not strangers to Kurdistan. The division of Kurdistan through Sykes-Picot [Agreement] and [Treaty of] Lausanne did not happen with our consent. We as Kurds don't have to respect it. Such a fact exists, but we as Kurds do not have to respect it, ideologically or spiritually. PKK is not a foreign force, but a Kurdistani one. South, East, North and West are all considered as Kurdistan.
When the South was in trouble when Daesh attacked it, entering Shingal and arriving at the entrance of Erbil and when it controlled some areas like the vicinity of Mosul and Makhmour and wanted to enter Kirkuk and elsewhere, the PKK did not say ‘This is not my business because I am a force affiliated to another part [of Kurdistan]’. PKK forces left their bases and replaced those forces who could not resist. They fought Daesh on all fronts and protected the people of Kurdistan. This is not a favor to anyone, but the PKK’s duty. They do not expect appreciation from anyone because their training led them to leave other guerrillas in the mountains and go to Shingal, Makhmour, Kirkuk, Jalawla and others. They also came to Duhok and defended Erbil. They have been trained to defend Kurdistan, not only one part. They say that we should protect Kurds and Kurdistan when in danger. Therefore, the term ‘foreign forces’ is used for those forces who are not from Kurdistan. Foreign forces are the invading forces who should leave Kurdistan.
However, when the PKK says that it is a Kurdistani force, it does not mean that it should put the achievements of the South at risk or see the Kurdistan government and parliament as illegitimate institutions. The South has achievements that were gained through revolution. There is an administration, parliament and government. PKK respects this and wants to protect and develop them. There are reservations, but this is something different and these achievements should be protected. PKK is working and will work on maintaining these achievements.
Why does the nature of your relations with the KDP directly affect Kurdistan Region’s relations with Rojava? Is this because you are the dominant force in Rojava and KDP is the dominant force in the Region? For example, both had limited relations before KDP-PKK clashes began last summer and there were unity talks between Kurdish ruling and opposition parties in Rojava, but the tensions severely harmed all of this.
Kurdistan is a country. Even if it is divided through the Sykes-Picot Agreement and the Treaty of Lausanne, Kurdistan is still one country and all Kurdish people are one nation. When there are tensions between two Kurdistani forces in any part, it will affect the other parts as well. This is not a strange thing. If there are tensions between two Kurdistani forces and other parts say they are monitoring it, this is not a strange thing. Both PKK and KDP are Kurdistani forces. Tensions between them will affect other places as they are influential in other parts as well. This is not strange. There surely will be an impact as people state their different positions.
Mazloum Abdi, general commander of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), said that PKK forces have begun withdrawing from Rojava. This tells us that the PKK does have a presence in Rojava. US officials have also said during their briefings that PKK has relations with Rojava authorities. Turkey claims that SDF and the Democratic Union Party (PYD) are Syrian offshoots of the PKK. What is your response to all this? Do you see your relations with PYD as a natural contact between two Kurdish parties or do you see them as part of the PKK or KCK?
As I said before, PKK is a Kurdistani force that is ready to resist all attacks on Kurds. When the West of Kurdistan came under attack [from ISIS], who reached out to them? Who defended Kobane? Go and look at the Kobane cemeteries and read the identities on their gravestones. There are martyrs from all four parts of Kurdistan – from all cities in South, East, North and West. There are even international martyrs who came from abroad to help the Kurds, following a call from Kurds and in relation with the paradigm of Leader Apo. Who gathered these forces and took them to the West to protect them? Who protected the area from Daesh? Who liberated the Daesh capital? This reality should be seen everywhere.
No one should look for excuses for the PKK presence in any area. PKK is a Kurdistani force that has gone to the aid of any part of Kurdistan that is in trouble. When Shingal was in trouble, PKK went there on the second day and protected it from genocide. PKK defended Makhmour, Erbil and Kirkuk. I mean, it protected the South in the same way it protected the West. PKK wants to protect the administration in the West and respects it in the same way it does for the South, which has its own government.
The other issues triggered by the enemy and the excuses of the Turkish state or the willingness of some people who want Kurds to confront each other are baseless. PKK is a Kurdistani force and will be present everywhere in Kurdistan. It also has supporters. Leader Apo served in this region [Rojava] for 20 years. There are also thousands of the families of the martyrs there. The people of the West have protected the four parts of Kurdistan in the ranks of the PKK and fallen as martyrs. You cannot separate these from each other by categorizing them in parts of Kurdistan or their affiliation. This is not right and it is something encouraged by the Turkish state. Kurds and their friends should not act as per Turkey’s claims or take them seriously.
Turkish authorities claim that the PKK have turned Sulaimani into another Qandil. How do you respond to that? How are your relations with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK)? Is it true that Turkey’s pressure on the party, such as a ban on flights to the province, has led the PUK to decrease its assistance to the PKK and limit their activities?
Sulaimani is Sulaimani, not Qandil. PUK is a Kurdistani party. We have relations with the PUK, KDP, and all other Kurdistani parties. However, relations with some are better than others. Sulaimani is part of Kurdistan and we do not care what Turkey says. No Kurds should act as per the claims of the Turkish state, which wants to create tensions between Kurds and make Kurdistani forces confront each other. Everyone has to be cautious in this regard.
You live in Europe and closely monitor PKK activities there. As you know, some European countries consider the PKK a terrorist organization and have limited the group’s activities. How does the PKK survive this pressure and conduct its activities? Have the activities decreased or increased?
As I said initially, PKK is a Kurdistani force and PKK supporters are among Kurds wherever they are. The PKK is a great force, with supporters from all parts of Kurdistan and outside Kurdistan, such as among Kurds who live in America, Europe, Australia, Armenia, Caucasus, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan and others. There are more than two million Kurds in Europe. PKK supporters are also among them because the PKK is a great force and has more supporters from Kurds than other forces. It is normal for these supporters to do their work.
It is true that the European Union, USA, UK and other countries have added the PKK to the terror list for the sake of their relations with Turkey. This is an unfair, oppressive, and illegal designation. I am a legal expert and I have worked on this issue. I am also conducting research in this regard. I also work against this unlawfulness. I am in contact with European and international lawyers in this regard. I am carrying out legal work against this designation. Additionally, all Kurds are concerned about this designation and they have been victimized because of the list. The list is based on their interests with Turkey. PKK is the freedom force, struggling and fighting for the freedom of its people. No one can designate a freedom force as a terrorist group. If they do, it is unfair and oppressive. Those who have added it to the list realize this.
There is a political, societal, legal, lobbying, and diplomatic struggle against this list in Europe. A signature-collection campaign was launched at the European Parliament some years ago. Over 140 parliamentarians signed for the exclusion of the PKK from the list. At the Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxemburg, a suit has been filed against the terror list. In Belgium, when cases were opened against us, including me, they wanted to sentence us, but we defended ourselves. The court decided that we were right, and both lower and higher courts ruled that the PKK is not a terrorist force, but a force fighting for the freedom of its people. Those people who were being tried in the court were innocent.
This is how the situation is. In some countries, sometimes our people are arrested for the sake of relations with Turkey. Many Kurds have been victims of this list, creating obstacles for their bureaucratic, economic and legal affairs. This list has badly affected all Kurds, not only PKK supporters. All Kurdistanis should express their opposition to this list. In this regard, we believe that we are on the right path and we will succeed in our struggle.
