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ERBIL, Kurdistan Region - The Consul General of the Netherlands in Erbil Jaco Beerends spoke with Rudaw’s Nwenar Fatih on Thursday about a wide range of issues including collaboration for youth projects in the Kurdistan Region, shared interests like security, development, investment, and the future of military and diplomatic relations between Baghdad and Western countries.
“We started out with just the villa and just one person, a laptop diplomat as we call it,” Beerends said. “And by now, we have a staff of over ten, which is not huge, but for us and for the things we try to do, it is considerable.”
The Netherlands has been actively involved in Kurdistan, particularly in Erbil, over the past decade through diplomatic efforts. As a member of Operation Inherent Resolve and the US-led international against the Islamic State (ISIS), the military and foreign relations ministry of the Netherlands has helped to lead and implement a Peshmerga reform plan.
The Netherlands is also collaborating with the private sector to prepare young people for the job market through education, highlighting projects such as "Co-create Your City."
Beerends said the legacy of the Saddam Hussein regime is the primary reason for the sizable Kurdish diaspora in the Netherlands.
“This established the relationship,” he said. “And, usually, of course, now we are one or two generations further, but that remains a very important part of the work.”
The Dutch diplomat praised education, particularly higher education, in the Kurdistan Region.
“Most of the universities here are host to very good students,” he said. “Their programs are quite solid. And what is a very big pro in the system here is that most of the universities are accessible to everybody in the sense that there is no direct hindrance, for instance, from a financial point of view, to be able to get to have a good education.”
Western countries have encouraged initiatives to professionalize, further train, and perhaps more importantly to unify the Kurdistan Region’s soldiers, the Peshmerga. Despite their recent success and cooperation with the coalition against ISIS, many units are politically aligned.
“On Peshmerga reform, this process has been quite difficult,” Beerends said. “I also mentioned in a previous interview here that I was quite critical of how things were developing. I think it's important to state that this criticism is not directed at the people working on the unification and making the unified Peshmerga ministry into a professional unit.
“What is hampering progress is that there is a political layer on top of that, where people within the Peshmerga are always aligned to either one side or the other,” he added.
While there are a few Peshmerga unified units, most units are organized and influenced by the region’s two largest parties, the Kurdistan Democratic Party and Patriotic Union of Kurdistan.
“I also think that it is very much a challenge for many of them, because of the fact that they are so much ingrained in let's say, their own dynamics in party politics, in the way that they have to kind of deliver to their constituencies and things like that. But I also think it takes leadership to be able to set that aside sometimes and work on compromises.
The future of international coalition forces in Iraq is a contentious issue, with officials in Baghdad increasingly calling for their expulsion.
“This is a process, I think that's important to note,” the Dutch CG said. “Keeping everything as it was. That is not going to happen. And I think it is therefore a good thing that it is being reviewed, what is the right way of cooperation?
“But I don't think the intention is there for the international military forces to completely disappear,” he added. “So I think we're in a transition phase.”
The following is the transcript of Jaco Beerends' interview with Rudaw
Rudaw: Welcome to my show. We are glad we are having you at Rudaw again. As we are talking, it's been 10 years now since the Netherlands opened its consulate general in Erbil. Over a decade, I want to ask you - Is the relationship between Erbil and Amsterdam consistent, or have there been new developments in this relationship?
Consul General Jaco Beerends: Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me here. It's an honor to again talk to you and use your audience to express some of my views. Yes, ten years. Of course, there's a process to this. Ten years ago, we thought it was very necessary to have, let's say, this permanent diplomatic footprint here. That comes very much from the fact that we have quite a number of Dutch passport holders here. So the Dutch Kurdish community was one of the main reasons to establish our consulate general here. But of course, there were many more reasons that we also worked on, and we'll probably get to that in the coming time when we speak to each other. That has developed, of course, in ten years' time. We started out with just the villa and just one person, a laptop diplomat as we call it. And by now, we have a staff of over ten, which is not huge, but for us and for the things we try to do, it is considerable. And of course we work here very much together with our embassy in Baghdad, which is much bigger. But yes, we are happy that we could go into the journey of where we are right now.
In the last two years, what has been the main focus of the work that you have done here?
Well, the point that I just mentioned, that we have a Dutch Kurdish community that remains still a very important part of our work.
There are roughly 7,000 passport holders?
It's very difficult to get a real number on that, but somewhere between 5,000 and 7,000 is what our estimate is.
That’s big for a country like the Netherlands?
Yes, it is. We still get many reactions of those people that… the legacy of why this is, why this community exists is because in the time when the Kurdish people were really very much under attack during the Saddam Hussein regime, we were one of the European countries - not the only one, but one of the countries - that were a guest for many Kurdish people fleeing from persecution. This established the relationship. And, usually, of course, now we are one or two generations further, but that remains a very important part of the work.
To get back to your question, next to that, an important part of our work remains the economic work. Working on trade and economics has been, and also in those 10 years, has further progressed in being an important pillar on what we do. Lastly, I would say if you try to name the main issues we work on, it’s also, of course, politics and security, under which Peshmerga reform [is included], but there are many more aspects that have to do with our interest and your interest in keeping this region as stable and secure as possible.
One of the sectors that the Netherlands focuses on is youth in Kurdistan, and you have different projects in this regard. What impression do you have, as the Netherlands - because you work with the youth - about the youth in Kurdistan? What’s your opinion about that?
First of all, we think that it is so important to work on youth aspects because they are the next generation that needs to form this community and this society. My impression is that there is an enormous amount of very motivated youth out there that really wants to grab every opportunity they can get.
Most of the universities here are host to very good students. Their programs are quite solid. And what is a very big pro in the system here is that most of the universities are accessible to everybody in the sense that there is no direct hindrance, for instance, from a financial point of view, to be able to get a good education.
What I do see as a side of the youth education that is less developed currently, is how these students come out of university: How are they prepared and equipped to enter the job market, to be attractive to the private sector, or to be able to secure international jobs if they wish to pursue that? There is still a lot of work to be done, I think, in using the full potential of that educational system and making it useful. For instance, an important part of the work we have been doing with the government here is to make that instrumental in diversifying the economy. How do you grow the private sector? How do you make use of this young, energetic wave of people that wants to build the next companies for it?
In which field does the Netherlands currently support the KRG?
Oh, wow, that is quite wide.
For example, I remember in 2017, there was a specific project that the Netherlands spent about 250,000 Euros on good governance and how to digitize the processes within the government. Then, I also remember that after that, there were certain projects where the Netherlands helped the Kurdistan Region with agriculture and irrigation systems. Now, what is the sector that you support in the KRI?
Well, first of all, I think it's important to know that there are certain big projects where, from the Dutch side, considerable amounts of money are being spent with partners trying to tackle the big issues that are still here. For instance, there is a program called “Prospects,” which is focused on IDP camps. The IDP camps, still mostly in this region, host huge amounts of people. They also deal with youth and education, and with people who will eventually expand outside these camps back to their own environments. This is part of the work we do with big partners such as the World Bank and the UN, but also of course with the government here and in Baghdad. If you ask me what we do more directly in our interaction, it mostly involves programs dealing with economics and agriculture. It is important to know that there are different layers of cooperation. For instance, we have government-to-government cooperation, where we advise the government on things we think we can give solid advice on and that are welcomed on how to form policy. There is also business-to-business, where we just connect businesses together. And there is knowledge-to-knowledge cooperation, which involves, especially in agriculture - How do we transfer knowledge that we have and think can be helpful to developing sectors here? How do we transfer that knowledge to Kurdish institutions and entities and universities? In all these different layers, we have several different projects. To answer your question on what are the latest things we have been doing: We are now working on a project that’s called “Co-Creater City.” It is a project where in smaller towns and cities, we look at what the issues are actually there that people are affected by. We try to use universities in the areas to work together with lecturers and students to tackle these issues - and what can they themselves do to solve issues on waste, water, agriculture, and things like that.
The Peshmerga reform plan is also known as the Dutch plan because the main ideas and structure of the plan came from Dutch military officers. How is that plan going now?
I'm not 100% sure if that is correct what you are saying.
I know that this is what the former Netherlands consul general said.
OK, well, maybe he was a bit too proud. Actually, as far as I know, the process already existed. We were definitely one of the first member countries to join, but there were a couple of others as well. We weren't the first, and we were asked by the government here to join because they thought we could be a valuable partner in this, which we still think we can be. On Peshmerga reform. This process has been quite difficult. I also mentioned in a previous interview here that I was quite critical of how things were developing. I think it's important to state that this criticism is not directed at the people working on the unification and making the unified Peshmerga ministry into a professional unit that can also direct these unified Peshmerga forces better. That is not the issue. What is hampering progress is that there is a political layer on top of that, where people within the Peshmerga are always aligned to either one side or the other. As long as the political level has difficulty in supporting this from a point-of-view that they also need to compromise and come to certain solutions in which they see the greater value of the project instead of their own interests - as long as that is on the table, it is a very difficult process. But we still believe in the value of it, and so does the government here. So we keep putting effort into it, and we still think much can come out of it.
Last year, a few Dutch soldiers from the Kurdistan Region in Iraq, who are on duty here, spoke to Dutch media and criticized how the process is going and how slow it is. Does the Netherlands have a different view about the plan and the process now?
Like anything you work on, of course, your views evolve. Our view on what we should do now might be different from some time ago. There is, of course, a point where you might say, "Well, we don't see that we can add much value to this process that we don’t need to be there.” We aren’t at that point yet. But I can see that there might be a future point where we would say, "Well this is no longer for us. We've tried this for a number of years, and we are not going to be partners in this anymore."
For now, I think it is still very important to support those elements that really want to make this into a success. It also symbolizes something bigger than just the Peshmerga. It symbolizes that the power of the Kurdistan Region in Iraq comes from a unified Kurdistan Region in Iraq and not as separated into two or more sides. Because we also believe in that aspect very much, it also has symbolic value that we are still committed to this. We really think that for the last few years, again, this region has become less influential and less attractive sometimes to certain partners, because of the fact that there was a lack of unity. And then you come to these elections coming up that are created incredibly important to have a new start again, and to unify after the elections, probably because before elections is difficult. But after that, to have a new start to have a new Kurdistan Regional Government that is unified.
This unification of Peshmerga, why is it important for the Netherlands and the coalition?
There’s two sides to that. First, the side where we find it important that the Kurdistan Region of Iraq is our partner, and it’s important to you, so we are partners in this. So if one of your partners is interested in something, you also buy into it because you have a shared goal in that. Next to that, if you look at the pure Dutch interest in this, we have an interest in keeping this region secure, stable, and safe. We were very much an active partner in the OIR [Operation Inherent Resolve] mission that also brought many Dutch soldiers to the Kurdistan Region. That was of course because of a threat, ISIS. And the Daesh threat is mostly a threat here, but it is also a threat to us Western countries. So there’s our national interests, as well. Keeping the region secure, stable, and safe also serves us a part of the wider region being more secure and safe.
Regarding security of the region, and the OIR mission. Iraq is asking the coalition to end its mission in Iraq, at least by next year. And the Netherlands is part of the coalition. And that's why you have soldiers on the ground here. Do you think the time is correct and right, for such a step?
This is a process, I think that's important to note. Keeping everything as it was. That is not going to happen. And I think it is therefore a good thing that it is being reviewed - what is the right way of cooperation? And of course, there is a legitimate, I would say standpoint, from the Iraqis themselves in this. What or how are they going to form their country in the next few years? So in that context, it's logical that we discuss how this should evolve into a next phase, keeping it as it is, is impossible. Then the question comes in, what direction is this going to develop? And I think what is happening is that the form of cooperation is changing. And there's new ways of being invited, for instance, by and from the side of governments and authorities here to be present in a military sense. But I don't think the intention is there for the international military forces to completely disappear. So I think we're in a transition phase … I can't predict exactly where it's going to end. But I think it will be much more in re-formalizing these cooperations than it will be that we all decide from both sides, the Iraqi side and the international side that this is no longer needed in any form or any way. I don't think that will happen.
But do you think that completely disappearing somehow will affect Western companies and investment operating in Iraq and the Kurdistan Region too?
It could. There is no direct link between the two because it's not that companies and economic interests materialize, because there's Western powers here; that direct link is not there. But the link that you can establish is that if this area stays stable and secure and safe, then more and more economic development will be there. And you see that almost very automatically when an area is very attractive in a certain way to trade partners, as soon as it stays and remains stable and secure. They will move from trading to investment. That's an important economic indicator, when do companies move from trade to investment, and that will happen more often if it is stable and secure. So if international powers can contribute to that and help keep this region stable and secure, then it will have an effect. Definitely.
You meet all political parties in the Kurdistan Region. How do you see and view the political situation of Kurdistan now?
Well, I touched a bit on it earlier when we spoke about elections. I think there's a number of political leaders here that do see that a unified Kurdistan is the one thing, is the key to moving forward. I also think that it is very much a challenge for many of them, because of the fact that they are so much ingrained in let's say, their own dynamics in party politics, in the way that they have to kind of deliver to their constituencies and things like that. But I also think it takes leadership to be able to set that aside sometimes and work on compromises. You know, if you want to achieve something for the greater good, you will have to pitch in every now and then. There are, depending on who you speak to, more or less intention to work towards these compromises. So, very hard lines sometimes prevent you to get there.
How do you evaluate the human rights situation and freedom of speech, freedom of media in Kurdistan?
We spoke a bit about this, before we started the interview. And it is crucial, I think, to note that it is because of a certain tradition in free media, in human rights and in the way that the media is able to tell the public what is really going on, that makes this region interesting for Western parties to work with, because it means that on top of a democracy, you also share values on how that democracy should work. For the last two years, however, these human rights you're talking about have been very much under pressure from various sides. The fact that security in societies is building. And with that, I mean, security sector in civil society is building up that hampers the process of free media and human rights. But also from other views, you see very positive developments. For instance, when we were talking about Rudaw and the professionalism of journalists, independent media, which here most media are always connected to a political party means that you're always you can't be 100% objective. |But to see a journalist working towards being very capable in the profession they have, makes it more easy to actually have that leverage and to do the things that an objective journalist should do. And I compliment you, all journalists actually here. For us, it's always a bit balancing, we need to make sure that if we do an interview here that we also do an interview on the other side, because many of the media institutions are linked to political parties, still.
That makes it even difficult for you. So you have to give more interviews. As part of that, more time. You talked really about elections. But what is the proper atmosphere and environment that you wish for this election to be held in?
Every step of the way in trying to talk to political leadership on the issue of how important elections are, we have been emphasizing that it is extremely important to have these elections at a fair playing field. That means that there needs to be a certain, you know, transparency is very important. How can people know what the process is and how they will see what the results are? What is the process of being accountable to what the process has been and how the election results will be? Again, journalists play an incredibly important part in that if journalists can do their work freely, and they can report about what they see happening. Also, if it is sometimes that there are irregularities or people are misusing their power in elections, because that will happen. There will be incidents where you know, things don't go exactly as they should. But then it's very important to be transparent in the way that you have journalists when they report about this, that they don't have repercussions, that they don't have the pressure of just covering only this area and not that area. That is exactly what an objective journalist should be able to do. You know, journalists are essential in speaking truth to power. If you have power that comes with that, the responsibility to be accountable, because just by having power and not being accountable, quite a dangerous situation arises. So journalists are very important to speak truth to power and to hold power accountable.
Jaco, you are having your last days in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq. What's the thing that affected you here in your mission and something that you won't forget?
You know, always connection with people is the most important thing that has a lasting impression. And especially with my period here in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, it has been the connection with people that made it so special. And it comes, especially from the fact that Kurdish culture is extremely hospitable. Everybody you encounter wants to invite you in their home, wants to serve your meal, wants to have you come back again, wants you to meet the family. That makes it something that I, in my speech at our national day, I said, a little part of Kurdistan I will take with me in my heart when I go, because it is that impression with people that really ingrains and sticks to you. So that will be, surely, the part that has the most lasting effect on me.
And, of course, coming here, it's a completely different culture, compared to the Netherlands. I know we have lots in common too. But what is that part of the culture that you liked?
Well, that has to do with this, this environment where you're very easily invited into people's homes. When you speak for instance to people professionally, that doesn't have to be political leadership, but in any profession that you speak to people, business people, cultural relations, u usually when you meet each other professionally, after that, they will invite you again to come then to their house and or to some other place where they themselves as a family would like to invite you. And once you get there. Usually most of the family takes part in that whole encounter. So the sons and wife and kids, everybody is included in this environment where you are greeted, that makes it very, very nice. And it also makes you feel very welcomed. And that's great.
During your time here, what was the thing that you wish could happen, but you didn't see?
There's always things that you would have loved to bring further. When you talk about the cooperation on Peshmerga, of course, this is one of the points where it would have been great to just make a little bit more progress on that process. Also, it is really good if it would have been possible to also make another step in serving the community here in their consular wishes. That will also have been on my wish list. But on all of these issues, we did work quite hard. I also think we also accomplish things. So it's not that I regret that we have put so much effort in these things. But it's more that I see more work to be done in these areas.
Jaco, thank you. Welcome to Rudaw again.
Thanks.
“We started out with just the villa and just one person, a laptop diplomat as we call it,” Beerends said. “And by now, we have a staff of over ten, which is not huge, but for us and for the things we try to do, it is considerable.”
The Netherlands has been actively involved in Kurdistan, particularly in Erbil, over the past decade through diplomatic efforts. As a member of Operation Inherent Resolve and the US-led international against the Islamic State (ISIS), the military and foreign relations ministry of the Netherlands has helped to lead and implement a Peshmerga reform plan.
The Netherlands is also collaborating with the private sector to prepare young people for the job market through education, highlighting projects such as "Co-create Your City."
Beerends said the legacy of the Saddam Hussein regime is the primary reason for the sizable Kurdish diaspora in the Netherlands.
“This established the relationship,” he said. “And, usually, of course, now we are one or two generations further, but that remains a very important part of the work.”
The Dutch diplomat praised education, particularly higher education, in the Kurdistan Region.
“Most of the universities here are host to very good students,” he said. “Their programs are quite solid. And what is a very big pro in the system here is that most of the universities are accessible to everybody in the sense that there is no direct hindrance, for instance, from a financial point of view, to be able to get to have a good education.”
Western countries have encouraged initiatives to professionalize, further train, and perhaps more importantly to unify the Kurdistan Region’s soldiers, the Peshmerga. Despite their recent success and cooperation with the coalition against ISIS, many units are politically aligned.
“On Peshmerga reform, this process has been quite difficult,” Beerends said. “I also mentioned in a previous interview here that I was quite critical of how things were developing. I think it's important to state that this criticism is not directed at the people working on the unification and making the unified Peshmerga ministry into a professional unit.
“What is hampering progress is that there is a political layer on top of that, where people within the Peshmerga are always aligned to either one side or the other,” he added.
While there are a few Peshmerga unified units, most units are organized and influenced by the region’s two largest parties, the Kurdistan Democratic Party and Patriotic Union of Kurdistan.
“I also think that it is very much a challenge for many of them, because of the fact that they are so much ingrained in let's say, their own dynamics in party politics, in the way that they have to kind of deliver to their constituencies and things like that. But I also think it takes leadership to be able to set that aside sometimes and work on compromises.
The future of international coalition forces in Iraq is a contentious issue, with officials in Baghdad increasingly calling for their expulsion.
“This is a process, I think that's important to note,” the Dutch CG said. “Keeping everything as it was. That is not going to happen. And I think it is therefore a good thing that it is being reviewed, what is the right way of cooperation?
“But I don't think the intention is there for the international military forces to completely disappear,” he added. “So I think we're in a transition phase.”
The following is the transcript of Jaco Beerends' interview with Rudaw
Rudaw: Welcome to my show. We are glad we are having you at Rudaw again. As we are talking, it's been 10 years now since the Netherlands opened its consulate general in Erbil. Over a decade, I want to ask you - Is the relationship between Erbil and Amsterdam consistent, or have there been new developments in this relationship?
Consul General Jaco Beerends: Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me here. It's an honor to again talk to you and use your audience to express some of my views. Yes, ten years. Of course, there's a process to this. Ten years ago, we thought it was very necessary to have, let's say, this permanent diplomatic footprint here. That comes very much from the fact that we have quite a number of Dutch passport holders here. So the Dutch Kurdish community was one of the main reasons to establish our consulate general here. But of course, there were many more reasons that we also worked on, and we'll probably get to that in the coming time when we speak to each other. That has developed, of course, in ten years' time. We started out with just the villa and just one person, a laptop diplomat as we call it. And by now, we have a staff of over ten, which is not huge, but for us and for the things we try to do, it is considerable. And of course we work here very much together with our embassy in Baghdad, which is much bigger. But yes, we are happy that we could go into the journey of where we are right now.
In the last two years, what has been the main focus of the work that you have done here?
Well, the point that I just mentioned, that we have a Dutch Kurdish community that remains still a very important part of our work.
There are roughly 7,000 passport holders?
It's very difficult to get a real number on that, but somewhere between 5,000 and 7,000 is what our estimate is.
That’s big for a country like the Netherlands?
Yes, it is. We still get many reactions of those people that… the legacy of why this is, why this community exists is because in the time when the Kurdish people were really very much under attack during the Saddam Hussein regime, we were one of the European countries - not the only one, but one of the countries - that were a guest for many Kurdish people fleeing from persecution. This established the relationship. And, usually, of course, now we are one or two generations further, but that remains a very important part of the work.
To get back to your question, next to that, an important part of our work remains the economic work. Working on trade and economics has been, and also in those 10 years, has further progressed in being an important pillar on what we do. Lastly, I would say if you try to name the main issues we work on, it’s also, of course, politics and security, under which Peshmerga reform [is included], but there are many more aspects that have to do with our interest and your interest in keeping this region as stable and secure as possible.
One of the sectors that the Netherlands focuses on is youth in Kurdistan, and you have different projects in this regard. What impression do you have, as the Netherlands - because you work with the youth - about the youth in Kurdistan? What’s your opinion about that?
First of all, we think that it is so important to work on youth aspects because they are the next generation that needs to form this community and this society. My impression is that there is an enormous amount of very motivated youth out there that really wants to grab every opportunity they can get.
Most of the universities here are host to very good students. Their programs are quite solid. And what is a very big pro in the system here is that most of the universities are accessible to everybody in the sense that there is no direct hindrance, for instance, from a financial point of view, to be able to get a good education.
What I do see as a side of the youth education that is less developed currently, is how these students come out of university: How are they prepared and equipped to enter the job market, to be attractive to the private sector, or to be able to secure international jobs if they wish to pursue that? There is still a lot of work to be done, I think, in using the full potential of that educational system and making it useful. For instance, an important part of the work we have been doing with the government here is to make that instrumental in diversifying the economy. How do you grow the private sector? How do you make use of this young, energetic wave of people that wants to build the next companies for it?
In which field does the Netherlands currently support the KRG?
Oh, wow, that is quite wide.
For example, I remember in 2017, there was a specific project that the Netherlands spent about 250,000 Euros on good governance and how to digitize the processes within the government. Then, I also remember that after that, there were certain projects where the Netherlands helped the Kurdistan Region with agriculture and irrigation systems. Now, what is the sector that you support in the KRI?
Well, first of all, I think it's important to know that there are certain big projects where, from the Dutch side, considerable amounts of money are being spent with partners trying to tackle the big issues that are still here. For instance, there is a program called “Prospects,” which is focused on IDP camps. The IDP camps, still mostly in this region, host huge amounts of people. They also deal with youth and education, and with people who will eventually expand outside these camps back to their own environments. This is part of the work we do with big partners such as the World Bank and the UN, but also of course with the government here and in Baghdad. If you ask me what we do more directly in our interaction, it mostly involves programs dealing with economics and agriculture. It is important to know that there are different layers of cooperation. For instance, we have government-to-government cooperation, where we advise the government on things we think we can give solid advice on and that are welcomed on how to form policy. There is also business-to-business, where we just connect businesses together. And there is knowledge-to-knowledge cooperation, which involves, especially in agriculture - How do we transfer knowledge that we have and think can be helpful to developing sectors here? How do we transfer that knowledge to Kurdish institutions and entities and universities? In all these different layers, we have several different projects. To answer your question on what are the latest things we have been doing: We are now working on a project that’s called “Co-Creater City.” It is a project where in smaller towns and cities, we look at what the issues are actually there that people are affected by. We try to use universities in the areas to work together with lecturers and students to tackle these issues - and what can they themselves do to solve issues on waste, water, agriculture, and things like that.
The Peshmerga reform plan is also known as the Dutch plan because the main ideas and structure of the plan came from Dutch military officers. How is that plan going now?
I'm not 100% sure if that is correct what you are saying.
I know that this is what the former Netherlands consul general said.
OK, well, maybe he was a bit too proud. Actually, as far as I know, the process already existed. We were definitely one of the first member countries to join, but there were a couple of others as well. We weren't the first, and we were asked by the government here to join because they thought we could be a valuable partner in this, which we still think we can be. On Peshmerga reform. This process has been quite difficult. I also mentioned in a previous interview here that I was quite critical of how things were developing. I think it's important to state that this criticism is not directed at the people working on the unification and making the unified Peshmerga ministry into a professional unit that can also direct these unified Peshmerga forces better. That is not the issue. What is hampering progress is that there is a political layer on top of that, where people within the Peshmerga are always aligned to either one side or the other. As long as the political level has difficulty in supporting this from a point-of-view that they also need to compromise and come to certain solutions in which they see the greater value of the project instead of their own interests - as long as that is on the table, it is a very difficult process. But we still believe in the value of it, and so does the government here. So we keep putting effort into it, and we still think much can come out of it.
Last year, a few Dutch soldiers from the Kurdistan Region in Iraq, who are on duty here, spoke to Dutch media and criticized how the process is going and how slow it is. Does the Netherlands have a different view about the plan and the process now?
Like anything you work on, of course, your views evolve. Our view on what we should do now might be different from some time ago. There is, of course, a point where you might say, "Well, we don't see that we can add much value to this process that we don’t need to be there.” We aren’t at that point yet. But I can see that there might be a future point where we would say, "Well this is no longer for us. We've tried this for a number of years, and we are not going to be partners in this anymore."
For now, I think it is still very important to support those elements that really want to make this into a success. It also symbolizes something bigger than just the Peshmerga. It symbolizes that the power of the Kurdistan Region in Iraq comes from a unified Kurdistan Region in Iraq and not as separated into two or more sides. Because we also believe in that aspect very much, it also has symbolic value that we are still committed to this. We really think that for the last few years, again, this region has become less influential and less attractive sometimes to certain partners, because of the fact that there was a lack of unity. And then you come to these elections coming up that are created incredibly important to have a new start again, and to unify after the elections, probably because before elections is difficult. But after that, to have a new start to have a new Kurdistan Regional Government that is unified.
This unification of Peshmerga, why is it important for the Netherlands and the coalition?
There’s two sides to that. First, the side where we find it important that the Kurdistan Region of Iraq is our partner, and it’s important to you, so we are partners in this. So if one of your partners is interested in something, you also buy into it because you have a shared goal in that. Next to that, if you look at the pure Dutch interest in this, we have an interest in keeping this region secure, stable, and safe. We were very much an active partner in the OIR [Operation Inherent Resolve] mission that also brought many Dutch soldiers to the Kurdistan Region. That was of course because of a threat, ISIS. And the Daesh threat is mostly a threat here, but it is also a threat to us Western countries. So there’s our national interests, as well. Keeping the region secure, stable, and safe also serves us a part of the wider region being more secure and safe.
Regarding security of the region, and the OIR mission. Iraq is asking the coalition to end its mission in Iraq, at least by next year. And the Netherlands is part of the coalition. And that's why you have soldiers on the ground here. Do you think the time is correct and right, for such a step?
This is a process, I think that's important to note. Keeping everything as it was. That is not going to happen. And I think it is therefore a good thing that it is being reviewed - what is the right way of cooperation? And of course, there is a legitimate, I would say standpoint, from the Iraqis themselves in this. What or how are they going to form their country in the next few years? So in that context, it's logical that we discuss how this should evolve into a next phase, keeping it as it is, is impossible. Then the question comes in, what direction is this going to develop? And I think what is happening is that the form of cooperation is changing. And there's new ways of being invited, for instance, by and from the side of governments and authorities here to be present in a military sense. But I don't think the intention is there for the international military forces to completely disappear. So I think we're in a transition phase … I can't predict exactly where it's going to end. But I think it will be much more in re-formalizing these cooperations than it will be that we all decide from both sides, the Iraqi side and the international side that this is no longer needed in any form or any way. I don't think that will happen.
But do you think that completely disappearing somehow will affect Western companies and investment operating in Iraq and the Kurdistan Region too?
It could. There is no direct link between the two because it's not that companies and economic interests materialize, because there's Western powers here; that direct link is not there. But the link that you can establish is that if this area stays stable and secure and safe, then more and more economic development will be there. And you see that almost very automatically when an area is very attractive in a certain way to trade partners, as soon as it stays and remains stable and secure. They will move from trading to investment. That's an important economic indicator, when do companies move from trade to investment, and that will happen more often if it is stable and secure. So if international powers can contribute to that and help keep this region stable and secure, then it will have an effect. Definitely.
You meet all political parties in the Kurdistan Region. How do you see and view the political situation of Kurdistan now?
Well, I touched a bit on it earlier when we spoke about elections. I think there's a number of political leaders here that do see that a unified Kurdistan is the one thing, is the key to moving forward. I also think that it is very much a challenge for many of them, because of the fact that they are so much ingrained in let's say, their own dynamics in party politics, in the way that they have to kind of deliver to their constituencies and things like that. But I also think it takes leadership to be able to set that aside sometimes and work on compromises. You know, if you want to achieve something for the greater good, you will have to pitch in every now and then. There are, depending on who you speak to, more or less intention to work towards these compromises. So, very hard lines sometimes prevent you to get there.
How do you evaluate the human rights situation and freedom of speech, freedom of media in Kurdistan?
We spoke a bit about this, before we started the interview. And it is crucial, I think, to note that it is because of a certain tradition in free media, in human rights and in the way that the media is able to tell the public what is really going on, that makes this region interesting for Western parties to work with, because it means that on top of a democracy, you also share values on how that democracy should work. For the last two years, however, these human rights you're talking about have been very much under pressure from various sides. The fact that security in societies is building. And with that, I mean, security sector in civil society is building up that hampers the process of free media and human rights. But also from other views, you see very positive developments. For instance, when we were talking about Rudaw and the professionalism of journalists, independent media, which here most media are always connected to a political party means that you're always you can't be 100% objective. |But to see a journalist working towards being very capable in the profession they have, makes it more easy to actually have that leverage and to do the things that an objective journalist should do. And I compliment you, all journalists actually here. For us, it's always a bit balancing, we need to make sure that if we do an interview here that we also do an interview on the other side, because many of the media institutions are linked to political parties, still.
That makes it even difficult for you. So you have to give more interviews. As part of that, more time. You talked really about elections. But what is the proper atmosphere and environment that you wish for this election to be held in?
Every step of the way in trying to talk to political leadership on the issue of how important elections are, we have been emphasizing that it is extremely important to have these elections at a fair playing field. That means that there needs to be a certain, you know, transparency is very important. How can people know what the process is and how they will see what the results are? What is the process of being accountable to what the process has been and how the election results will be? Again, journalists play an incredibly important part in that if journalists can do their work freely, and they can report about what they see happening. Also, if it is sometimes that there are irregularities or people are misusing their power in elections, because that will happen. There will be incidents where you know, things don't go exactly as they should. But then it's very important to be transparent in the way that you have journalists when they report about this, that they don't have repercussions, that they don't have the pressure of just covering only this area and not that area. That is exactly what an objective journalist should be able to do. You know, journalists are essential in speaking truth to power. If you have power that comes with that, the responsibility to be accountable, because just by having power and not being accountable, quite a dangerous situation arises. So journalists are very important to speak truth to power and to hold power accountable.
Jaco, you are having your last days in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq. What's the thing that affected you here in your mission and something that you won't forget?
You know, always connection with people is the most important thing that has a lasting impression. And especially with my period here in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, it has been the connection with people that made it so special. And it comes, especially from the fact that Kurdish culture is extremely hospitable. Everybody you encounter wants to invite you in their home, wants to serve your meal, wants to have you come back again, wants you to meet the family. That makes it something that I, in my speech at our national day, I said, a little part of Kurdistan I will take with me in my heart when I go, because it is that impression with people that really ingrains and sticks to you. So that will be, surely, the part that has the most lasting effect on me.
And, of course, coming here, it's a completely different culture, compared to the Netherlands. I know we have lots in common too. But what is that part of the culture that you liked?
Well, that has to do with this, this environment where you're very easily invited into people's homes. When you speak for instance to people professionally, that doesn't have to be political leadership, but in any profession that you speak to people, business people, cultural relations, u usually when you meet each other professionally, after that, they will invite you again to come then to their house and or to some other place where they themselves as a family would like to invite you. And once you get there. Usually most of the family takes part in that whole encounter. So the sons and wife and kids, everybody is included in this environment where you are greeted, that makes it very, very nice. And it also makes you feel very welcomed. And that's great.
During your time here, what was the thing that you wish could happen, but you didn't see?
There's always things that you would have loved to bring further. When you talk about the cooperation on Peshmerga, of course, this is one of the points where it would have been great to just make a little bit more progress on that process. Also, it is really good if it would have been possible to also make another step in serving the community here in their consular wishes. That will also have been on my wish list. But on all of these issues, we did work quite hard. I also think we also accomplish things. So it's not that I regret that we have put so much effort in these things. But it's more that I see more work to be done in these areas.
Jaco, thank you. Welcome to Rudaw again.
Thanks.
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