Afghan women will not sacrifice their rights for peace: Habiba Sarabi

Habiba Sarabi, an Afghan women’s rights activist, former deputy to the High Peace Council, advisor to CEO Dr Abdullah on women and youth issues, and the first Afghan woman to become a provincial governor in Bamiyan Province, took part in the preliminary inter-Afghan talks in Moscow and Doha this summer. 

Speaking to Rudaw English correspondent Robert Edwards in the Afghan capital Kabul in early September, Sarabi insists any deal between the government and the Taliban will not come at the expense of hard-won women’s rights. 

Click here to watch Rudaw’s feature length documentary – Afghanistan: The Missing Peace

READ MORE: Afghanistan: The Missing Peace – Part II: ‘When women are in danger, it’s not peace – it’s surrender’

Rudaw: Have women’s rights been ignored in the peace talks?

Habiba Sarabi: For the first time I participated in the Doha dialogue, it was the inter-Afghan dialogue so it was a big number or big delegation, almost together maybe 50 something, more than 50. So it was a good start, especially for ice breaking, how to interact with each other. Of course it was a plenary session and people could talk from both sides, from Taliban side and also Afghan side. But it was another committee, a drafting committee, for the declaration. So for the plenary side everybody could talk, including Taliban. But I can say from our side, or from Kabul delegation side, it was much inclusive, including women, youth, victims, representatives of victims, government, everyone. Ulema religious scholars. These were the membership of the committee or delegation. There was another small committee. They were assigned to work on the declaration. So I was also chosen by some other members as a member of that committee. We were six. Out of six, two of us were women. And from the other side, from Taliban side, there were three. So of course, according to the number, all together we were women, the number was 11 but out of 35. But from six on the declaration we were two. But something which was really very important and very crucial for us as women, of course the number was less, but we had a voice, a very strong voice to be heard. So from the other side among six I was selected as chair of that committee. So it was another advantage that they have, our friends, given to me. And it was of course nothing, no reaction from the Taliban that we cannot accept a woman chair, to be chair, or to chair the meeting. But anyway, it went, of course it was a tough meeting, we worked for almost 16 hours, but it was good. At least as women we could talk, but of course we did have our concerns and still the concerns remain. So the concern is about women’s rights. They were not accepting the women’s rights according to the international declaration, which is very important for us, because Afghanistan is a member of the United Nations and the international community. This is a sort of giving and taking. So we have to respect that there are treaties and the declaration which is coming from the Security Council or the UN as a whole. So it is a big concern for us. 

What was it like being in the room with the Taliban? Do you think they have changed or softened their position on some of these key social and cultural questions? Is there room for compromise? 

To be honest, at the beginning I was wondering a lot. It was a big concern for me how to talk face-to-face with Taliban. Of course, the first time was in Moscow. It was just a very official meeting. But during the lunch we had this chance at least to greet each other and to talk a little bit. But it was the second time I talked in Doha. I was wondering a little bit, but they showed to be very soft, very polite, and talk. But in my perspective it is not the real face of them. They haven’t changed a lot because ideologically they don’t believe in women’s rights. So that’s why, and not only for women’s rights, for civic rights, it’s not only for women but men and women, they have a little bit different behaviour. From the other side, almost for 20-25 years they have been fighting. And their violence is on their mind and their behaviour and every step they are taking, violence is included in that. But the people who are coming for talks, they have of course grown up and stayed in some places like Doha or some other area, of course their behaviour is quite different. But totally, and generally, I cannot believe that they have changed a lot. Of course from the other side they also depend for their recognition of the international community, so that is why also they wanted to show that they have changed. 

Should women be expected to sacrifice some of their rights in exchange for peace with the Taliban?

Oh it can be expected, but from the other side I want to assure that this is not the idea of the Afghan government to sacrifice women’s rights. It’s several times that I have heard from the president and the CEO that they cannot sacrifice the women’s rights for the peace process. Of course we are paying, we have to pay a price for the peace process, but it doesn’t mean that that price can be only the women’s rights. So now, at this moment, women in the country, women in Afghanistan, especially in the urban areas, we are not the same like 20 years ago. They have occupied Kabul. So a lot of things changed. One of the big changes – the media. Of course we were very upset that the media was totally silent during the Taliban occupation in Kabul and they never talked about women’s rights. Different groups of women, they were able to go to different countries to talk, to mobilise people, to raise their voice for the international community about the demolishing of their rights. But now it’s quite different. Mass media playing a big role, the media generally is playing a big role for the voice of women. And from the other side, women in Afghanistan, they have been changed a lot. Now we have a big number of women that are well educated, they’ve got higher education, we have plenty of women especially of the middle age and the young generation, they have got master’s degrees, they have graduated as PhDs. So these are a kind of movement for women. How they can accept going back again to 20 years or 30 years ago? This is impossible and I’m sure that it’s not only Afghan women but the international community, women of the other parts of the globe also can support Afghan women, and we have seen some sign of that from the United States, from for example French women parliamentarians who give us very strong support and different women from different European countries. So this is a kind of network among women, and it can help us. We are not alone. 

Have women and girls in rural and working class communities seen any improvement since the Taliban fell? Is it just the urban elite who have benefited under the democratic government? Has the post-2001 Afghan government done enough to promote female participation and leadership? 

This is a very, very wide-ranging question, especially when it comes to women’s rights and facilities for women’s welfare for rural areas, it’s really, we’d need a lot of time to talk about that. If I can compare a little bit and give you an image for that. For example during the Taliban era, no women could go to school, all the girls’ schools were shut down. And there was no single woman to go for a job or, of course there were some women like medicine doctors or somewhere else, but they were very under pressure. So we were not allowed to go without mahram, or a close male family member, in public, in the market or bazaar, to travel somewhere. So these were something that the women in Afghanistan, especially of the middle age or old age like me. So we cannot forget that. When we go for the peace process, it is for the benefit of our people, we want to stop more sacrifices from the people, we want to stop more bleeding, the civil casualty and the casualty of the people. It doesn’t mean we forget all of these issues or problems. So of course after that it was a new time, it’s a new movement, it’s a new phase of change, especially for Afghan women. So all the girls’ schools were opened for the girls to go to school, for higher education, for the preliminaries school, secondary school as well for high school and higher education. These were step by step, women could get progress. And so one of the examples I can give you is we had a programme by the name of National Solidarity Programme. And this National Solidarity Programme was on the basis of a council, a development council. Every village had their council that includes a women’s council and a male council, both of them. So now that programme has been changed to the Citizen Charter. That programme, so women had the right to sit down to the council. Of course it depended from one place to the other place, it was a little bit different. For example, the council was not able to establish for women in the southern part of Afghanistan, but in Bamiyan, as governor of Bamiyan I have played a big role in that. So the men council and women council, both of them, they have worked together. So it was a kind of progress for women to come out into society, to come out to the public. So they were involved in agriculture, involved with higher education, and the education system, the health system. So immediately all the international community supported Afghanistan and the Afghan government to facilitate for welfare, for services for the people, including women. But women of course had a chance for positive discrimination in different areas. Or we had some place for the women’s political participation, the quota for at least two women to come to the parliament for each province. We made a quota system to promote women’s rights. But unfortunately after, especially after, 2007, when the security deteriorated day by day and year by year, some parts of the country, like the south of the country, mostly the girls’ schools shut down and women and girls could not go to school. But some other parts, in the north and the west, especially on the central island, we had the highest number of girls attending school. There was progress, but unfortunately security made a block for women to get their rights and also to return to school. Of course violence and domestic violence - this violence was one of the biggest problems, still is one of the biggest problems, especially in the insecure areas. 

Why has the Taliban reemerged with such strength? What could have been done differently to prevent this?

I was not only, and it’s still not only, the rule of our government. We had a very strong partner and the Afghan government has been working with the partnership of the international community. So if we can go on the detail of what happened, I’m sure that it will need research by you and will take a lot of time. But I can grab some part of that to share. You know, when we want to have, or the government wants to go for the progress of the development for the rebuilding of the country, it needs a policy. Of course a strategy plan, and after that a policy. For making the policy, it was not only the fault of the Afghan government. It was a kind of partnership with the international community. Unfortunately the international community, they have applied a very wrong policy for Afghanistan. First of all, when it comes, I’m coming for the corruption. Because unfortunately our government is very accused of corruption. But we are not alone. Believe me that our partner is also involved with this bad phenomena. So when it comes to the good governance it’s the same. But the other policy, which is a big policy of tackling the war or corruption of governance, is the policy of the United States that without finishing one problem they have been tackled with another problem. For example, I can give you a very, very clear example. The problem in Afghanistan, they couldn’t resolve that problem and finish everything - of course the first agenda was working on anti-terrorism, or tackling the terrorism issue, and also it was democracy, women, so many different issues. But they didn’t finish their homework here in Afghanistan … For the issue of how the Taliban became so powerful, of course it was not only our fault, the government of Afghanistan’s fault. It was the fault of the international community as well. They have taken a very wrong policy. For example one of the issues is the issue of Iraq. In Afghanistan, the US didn’t tackle all the problems and issues that we had inside Afghanistan, in Afghanistan, but they have been tackled with the issue of Iraq and they made themselves busy with the Iraq issue. So this is something that, of course, this is one of the biggest policies that they have taken. But besides that it needs a lot of research and investigation to do. So I’m pretty sure that this strongness of the Taliban, it’s not only the fault of the Afghan government but with the partnership of the international community. Both of them they made something wrong. 

So the US was preoccupied by Iraq and other world commitments and never really finished the task of governance, fighting the war on drugs, many issues like this? They just didn’t finish the task, they were too distracted, they didn’t care enough about Afghanistan? 

Definitely. Sure. And I know that and I’m pretty sure you also know that there are so many books that according to the experience of different people that have been involved in Afghanistan, they have published their memories, so you can get a lot, the wrong policies, how the international community, especially the US, made some wrong polices, taken some wrong policies in Afghanistan, and the result of that, even promoting these warlords, that’s another issue that we can start even from Osama bin Laden up to today. So these are the policies that I don’t know to be honest what’s behind these sort of policies that we are still suffering. But unfortunately this is the Afghan people that are making sacrifices for that. 

Are you optimistic about peace? Attacks have continued and the Taliban believe they have won. Do you predict a return to civil war? What would that mean?

I am optimistic with caution. Of course, every politician in Afghanistan should be optimistic, otherwise of course we will die, we cannot move, we cannot act, we cannot struggle, we cannot fight. So that it why it is very, very important that we have to be optimistic, but taking caution for every moment, for every step. For example, as a person involved with the peace process, or to be in different dialogue or somehow representing women, I have to take caution, and also to have continuous consultation with women’s groups and different women’s groups, and also civil society. These are the people of Afghanistan, they are representing the young generation and educated people. Of course we cannot forget the rural people - they are the majority of the people, they are living there - but we should have, we have to be the voice of these people. So of course we are wondering and we do have our concerns that the peace talks shouldn’t be a kind of blind peace talk. So it should have enough transparency, it should consider the rights of citizens, the rights of women, the rights of youth, especially the victims that have suffered a lot. So we have to consider about every single right of these people, the citizens. Of course, if the peace process cannot have enough transparency or does not consider the rights of citizens, maybe it will be another option for some of the people to start again fighting. It is not unbelievable that civil war cannot be possible, it might be possible, but from the other side we have to put all of our efforts together to make this peace process a successful process. To not fail.