Interview
UNITAD senior legal officer Christopher Gosnell speaks to Rudaw TV on August 3, 2021. Photo: Rudaw
The United Nations team investigating ISIS crimes in Iraq (UNITAD) has made “great strides in developing, in particular, a very comprehensive case brief that describes the events, the crimes committed against the Yazidi population in particular, and concluding that those crimes were genocide,” Christopher Gosnell, UNITAD senior legal officer, told Rudaw’s Shaho Amin and Dildar Harki in an interview on Tuesday.
As their investigation continues, including exhuming mass graves, gathering digital evidence, and speaking to witnesses, the next important step is for Iraq to pass a law creating jurisdiction to prosecute international crimes, of genocide and crimes against humanity, he said. There is a draft moving through parliament and he hopes it will get wide support.
“Ensuring that genocide and crimes against humanity and war crimes can be put on trial in the country where these vast crimes were committed is extremely important for Iraq and for the victim communities and for the victims who want to see these crimes brought to the light of day,” said Gosnell.
Rudaw: UNITAD works to collect official documents and credible evidence that can be used in international courts for the genocide committed against Yazidis. Mr. Gosnell, how much evidence has been collected? How far have you gotten on this case?
Christopher Gosnell: I should clarify that UNITAD itself does not do the prosecution. The mandate of UNITAD is to collect, to preserve, and store evidence of crimes by Daesh [ISIS] in Iraq. And then to present this evidence in the form of information, case files, briefs that can then be used by national prosecutors, primarily Iraq. And we have made tremendous progress working, not only on our own, but in, with excellent cooperation of Iraqi authorities in exhuming mass graves, acquiring and analyzing electronic data, taking witness statements, gathering documentary evidence. And the purpose of that is to ensure that we have the fullest possible picture of the events that happened. And then to analyze that evidence that we collect as comprehensively as possible in order to characterize the crimes, the vast crimes that were perpetrated by Daesh in Iraq. And then to present this evidence to the national prosecutors who will then conduct the cases.
We have made great strides in developing, in particular, a very comprehensive case brief that describes the events, the crimes committed against the Yazidi population in particular, and concluding that those crimes were genocide. But what matters is not what UNITAD declares in respect of those events. What matters and what is particularly special and important and what will stand the test of time is when that evidence is presented to a court, trying individuals for those crimes, and then convictions are entered on the basis of that evidence. That is the legacy of Nuremburg, it’s the legacy of the Yugoslavia tribunal, it’s the legacy of the other international tribunals that have sought to hold individuals accountable for these truly vast crimes that are of interest not only to the victim communities of course, but to the international community as a whole.
UNITAD has developed a brief of some 500 pages of length detailing the crimes that were committed against the Yazidi and that brief is built on huge volume of evidence in the areas that I mentioned earlier. So that is what UNITAD is doing, that is the progress that UNITAD has made. And what is to be hoped for now is to see that information not collect dust in a library or in an archive, but for it to be used in a court of law and result in judgments and convictions.
Mr. Gosnell, how much longer do you think you need to move on to the next stage after collecting the evidence? Have you set a specific time?
That’s a very good a difficult question, especially considering the scale of the crimes that UNITAD is looking into. And I must underscore that UNITAD is examining crimes committed against all communities in Iraq, not only the Yazidi, but also crimes committed against Sunni, Christians, Shabak, Turkmen, and others. So the scale of the criminality is vast and as much as these crimes were committed in plain sight, as much as they are in a sense obvious, what is necessary is to document those crimes in accordance with international standards so that the evidence can be used in any courtroom around the world and that that evidence can be accepted as a strong basis for conviction. So the answer to your question is, as long as is necessary in order to gather the evidence. But what I can say is that UNITAD itself is working diligently to ensure that this happens as quickly as possible because justice delayed is justice denied.
Mr. Gosnell, mass graves are strong evidence. How many mass graves are there to be exhumed?
That is also a very difficult question to answer. There are many mass graves that are as yet unidentified. And many mass graves have not even been preliminarily surveyed. And again it’s important to recognize that a mass grave doesn’t necessarily mean several hundred individuals. It may be a dozen, it may be four, it may be a small group of that nature. So it is believed that there are a large number of mass graves scattered all over Iraq that still do need to be exhumed and analyzed. But there are, I think it’s fair to say, at least 80 sites that still need to be thoroughly examined, and probably more.
How helpful have the Kurdistan Regional Government and the Iraqi government been in collecting evidence so that the crimes committed against Yazidis will be recognized as genocide on the international level?
The support has been tremendous. The cooperation has been exemplary. Everyone wishes to see these crimes brought to the light of day. And we have benefitted tremendously in UNITAD from of course the knowledge, the expertise, the resources that have been provided by the Iraqi and Kurdish authorities. And then in turn we have also provided our support, technical support, know-how, specialized knowledge of the crimes, in many cases specific assistance, equipment, and other forms of support, because it’s only together, working together with Iraqi and Kurdish authorities that these crimes can properly be brought to light. And that work is being done effectively. The cooperation has been exemplary.
As you are investigating the case, what is the role of the Iraqi government?
The most important step now that needs to be taken is for legislation, creating a jurisdiction in Iraq that can prosecute international crimes, to be passed. That is the most important step that must now be taken, because at the moment, that jurisdiction does not exist. Of course UNITAD has been assisting the federal authorities for some time in promulgating and developing drafts of such a law. And those efforts recently I know have been renewed. There is a new draft that is moving forward through the federal parliament. And it is to be hoped that this legislation will garner the support of everyone because there is absolutely no one in Iraq whose interests will be served by not having the crimes of Daesh, because that is what the legislation is concerned with only – the crimes of Daesh. And ensuring that genocide and crimes against humanity and war crimes can be put on trial in the country where these vast crimes were committed is extremely important for Iraq and for the victim communities and for the victims who want to see these crimes brought to the light of day. So that is clearly the most important next step and we look forward to seeing this step taken very soon.
How will a trial go? Where will it be, if it reaches that stage? And how much longer until it reaches that stage?
As a general matter, there’s no doubt that it is best that crimes be adjudicated as close to the place where the victim communities are. It’s very important that victims be able to attend trials, to follow the proceedings, and to see justice being done in their communities. So this is the option that many would say is the most effective in terms of delivering a message of justice and of reconciliation amongst communities. So that needs to be provided for in legislation. And if there are perpetrators who are outside of Iraq, and for whatever reason cannot be returned to Iraq, then they must be held accountable where they are. And that is what is taking place. There are states that have taken on the responsibility prosecuting those individuals. And UNITAD is assisting with those prosecutions as well.
Mr. Gosnell, in the Rwanda genocide of 1994, twenty years or so after that a trial was held for those who had committed crimes against the victims. Do you think the Yazidis will see the same thing in a court in Iraq where they can sit face-to-face with the accused?
That is primarily, well entirely a matter for Iraq to determine in its full sovereignty, determining what form of international assistance Iraq considers to be most suitable under the circumstances of these crimes. At the moment, and this is UNITAD’s mandate, UNITAD’s mandate is to assist national prosecutions and we do very much see a pathway for national prosecutions, especially in Iraq. And that is what is to be initially hoped for. Whether Iraq wishes to have a different type of model, or perhaps Iraq wishes to have national courts that are built or that include international assistance is something that I’m sure the international community would be very interested in examining and that would be very much in line with indeed the nature of the investigative assistance that is being provided by UNITAD. But these are matters that are ultimately to be determined by the legislatures, examining what model is best suited to the crimes and to the circumstances of Iraq.
As their investigation continues, including exhuming mass graves, gathering digital evidence, and speaking to witnesses, the next important step is for Iraq to pass a law creating jurisdiction to prosecute international crimes, of genocide and crimes against humanity, he said. There is a draft moving through parliament and he hopes it will get wide support.
“Ensuring that genocide and crimes against humanity and war crimes can be put on trial in the country where these vast crimes were committed is extremely important for Iraq and for the victim communities and for the victims who want to see these crimes brought to the light of day,” said Gosnell.
Rudaw: UNITAD works to collect official documents and credible evidence that can be used in international courts for the genocide committed against Yazidis. Mr. Gosnell, how much evidence has been collected? How far have you gotten on this case?
Christopher Gosnell: I should clarify that UNITAD itself does not do the prosecution. The mandate of UNITAD is to collect, to preserve, and store evidence of crimes by Daesh [ISIS] in Iraq. And then to present this evidence in the form of information, case files, briefs that can then be used by national prosecutors, primarily Iraq. And we have made tremendous progress working, not only on our own, but in, with excellent cooperation of Iraqi authorities in exhuming mass graves, acquiring and analyzing electronic data, taking witness statements, gathering documentary evidence. And the purpose of that is to ensure that we have the fullest possible picture of the events that happened. And then to analyze that evidence that we collect as comprehensively as possible in order to characterize the crimes, the vast crimes that were perpetrated by Daesh in Iraq. And then to present this evidence to the national prosecutors who will then conduct the cases.
We have made great strides in developing, in particular, a very comprehensive case brief that describes the events, the crimes committed against the Yazidi population in particular, and concluding that those crimes were genocide. But what matters is not what UNITAD declares in respect of those events. What matters and what is particularly special and important and what will stand the test of time is when that evidence is presented to a court, trying individuals for those crimes, and then convictions are entered on the basis of that evidence. That is the legacy of Nuremburg, it’s the legacy of the Yugoslavia tribunal, it’s the legacy of the other international tribunals that have sought to hold individuals accountable for these truly vast crimes that are of interest not only to the victim communities of course, but to the international community as a whole.
UNITAD has developed a brief of some 500 pages of length detailing the crimes that were committed against the Yazidi and that brief is built on huge volume of evidence in the areas that I mentioned earlier. So that is what UNITAD is doing, that is the progress that UNITAD has made. And what is to be hoped for now is to see that information not collect dust in a library or in an archive, but for it to be used in a court of law and result in judgments and convictions.
Mr. Gosnell, how much longer do you think you need to move on to the next stage after collecting the evidence? Have you set a specific time?
That’s a very good a difficult question, especially considering the scale of the crimes that UNITAD is looking into. And I must underscore that UNITAD is examining crimes committed against all communities in Iraq, not only the Yazidi, but also crimes committed against Sunni, Christians, Shabak, Turkmen, and others. So the scale of the criminality is vast and as much as these crimes were committed in plain sight, as much as they are in a sense obvious, what is necessary is to document those crimes in accordance with international standards so that the evidence can be used in any courtroom around the world and that that evidence can be accepted as a strong basis for conviction. So the answer to your question is, as long as is necessary in order to gather the evidence. But what I can say is that UNITAD itself is working diligently to ensure that this happens as quickly as possible because justice delayed is justice denied.
Mr. Gosnell, mass graves are strong evidence. How many mass graves are there to be exhumed?
That is also a very difficult question to answer. There are many mass graves that are as yet unidentified. And many mass graves have not even been preliminarily surveyed. And again it’s important to recognize that a mass grave doesn’t necessarily mean several hundred individuals. It may be a dozen, it may be four, it may be a small group of that nature. So it is believed that there are a large number of mass graves scattered all over Iraq that still do need to be exhumed and analyzed. But there are, I think it’s fair to say, at least 80 sites that still need to be thoroughly examined, and probably more.
How helpful have the Kurdistan Regional Government and the Iraqi government been in collecting evidence so that the crimes committed against Yazidis will be recognized as genocide on the international level?
The support has been tremendous. The cooperation has been exemplary. Everyone wishes to see these crimes brought to the light of day. And we have benefitted tremendously in UNITAD from of course the knowledge, the expertise, the resources that have been provided by the Iraqi and Kurdish authorities. And then in turn we have also provided our support, technical support, know-how, specialized knowledge of the crimes, in many cases specific assistance, equipment, and other forms of support, because it’s only together, working together with Iraqi and Kurdish authorities that these crimes can properly be brought to light. And that work is being done effectively. The cooperation has been exemplary.
As you are investigating the case, what is the role of the Iraqi government?
The most important step now that needs to be taken is for legislation, creating a jurisdiction in Iraq that can prosecute international crimes, to be passed. That is the most important step that must now be taken, because at the moment, that jurisdiction does not exist. Of course UNITAD has been assisting the federal authorities for some time in promulgating and developing drafts of such a law. And those efforts recently I know have been renewed. There is a new draft that is moving forward through the federal parliament. And it is to be hoped that this legislation will garner the support of everyone because there is absolutely no one in Iraq whose interests will be served by not having the crimes of Daesh, because that is what the legislation is concerned with only – the crimes of Daesh. And ensuring that genocide and crimes against humanity and war crimes can be put on trial in the country where these vast crimes were committed is extremely important for Iraq and for the victim communities and for the victims who want to see these crimes brought to the light of day. So that is clearly the most important next step and we look forward to seeing this step taken very soon.
How will a trial go? Where will it be, if it reaches that stage? And how much longer until it reaches that stage?
As a general matter, there’s no doubt that it is best that crimes be adjudicated as close to the place where the victim communities are. It’s very important that victims be able to attend trials, to follow the proceedings, and to see justice being done in their communities. So this is the option that many would say is the most effective in terms of delivering a message of justice and of reconciliation amongst communities. So that needs to be provided for in legislation. And if there are perpetrators who are outside of Iraq, and for whatever reason cannot be returned to Iraq, then they must be held accountable where they are. And that is what is taking place. There are states that have taken on the responsibility prosecuting those individuals. And UNITAD is assisting with those prosecutions as well.
Mr. Gosnell, in the Rwanda genocide of 1994, twenty years or so after that a trial was held for those who had committed crimes against the victims. Do you think the Yazidis will see the same thing in a court in Iraq where they can sit face-to-face with the accused?
That is primarily, well entirely a matter for Iraq to determine in its full sovereignty, determining what form of international assistance Iraq considers to be most suitable under the circumstances of these crimes. At the moment, and this is UNITAD’s mandate, UNITAD’s mandate is to assist national prosecutions and we do very much see a pathway for national prosecutions, especially in Iraq. And that is what is to be initially hoped for. Whether Iraq wishes to have a different type of model, or perhaps Iraq wishes to have national courts that are built or that include international assistance is something that I’m sure the international community would be very interested in examining and that would be very much in line with indeed the nature of the investigative assistance that is being provided by UNITAD. But these are matters that are ultimately to be determined by the legislatures, examining what model is best suited to the crimes and to the circumstances of Iraq.
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