EXCLUSIVE: Abadi talks to Rudaw on Kurdish independence, oil dispute, Kirkuk, ties with Arab world

Rudaw correspondent Havidar Ahmed caught up with Iraqi Prime Minister Haider Abadi during the Arab Summit in Jordan last week and conducted this interview with him on the topics of Kurdish quest for independence, raising the Kurdish flag in Kirkuk, oil and budgetary disputes between Erbil and Baghdad and Iraq’s vision for reconciliation with its Arab neighbors, especially Saudi Arabia.

Rudaw: Mr. Abadi, thank you very much for this opportunity. Then let me start with the Arab Summit. What did Iraq gain from it?

Haider Abadi: In fact, many people do not pin much hope on the Arab Summit, but we wanted to leave it with new results. The Arab situation is full of disputes and there are tensions which have led to regional rivalries and opened the way for a terrorist organization like ISIS to come into being in Syria which also caused great disaster and headache for us in Iraq. When ISIS came to Iraq it killed many people  and many lost their lives resisting and facing ISIS. Everyone sacrificed, the Peshmerga, the volunteers, the police and all layers of society. We had a viewpoint to give to our brothers and it was that we should not continue these rivalries because those rivalries will allow these terrorists to break us all.

We understand that we have disputes but we should keep them under control and work to end them and work in a bigger circle of understanding and joint work. Iraq is now different from before and they see it. Iraq is now stronger than before and has recorded great victories against ISIS and terrorism, which many did not believe could be achieved in such a short period of time. They saw how the Peshmerga and the Iraqi army fought side by side instead of fighting each other. They had previously believed that Iraqis were in dispute and would kill each other. But now they see that Iraq is united against a common enemy.

There is now an opportunity for Iraq to stand up and stand strong and this will be in the interest of all Iraqis. It is our principle and we told them this that the Iraqi government serves all equally and without discrimination regardless of the differences. An Iraqi citizen is a first class citizen wherever they might be, in Kurdistan or any Iraqi province, be they Arab, Kurd, Shiite or Sunni or Christian. That is an Iraqi view and we will not bow or go under anyone’s hegemony. Iraqis have good patriotism.

But in the meantime we cooperate with other countries and the proof is the work we have done with the international coalition that came to assist us. We worked with some neighboring countries that came to our aid. We also have hopes for a new Arab situation that would allow us to live in peace and rebuild the devastations of ISIS.

Rudaw: Have you got promises from Arab countries for the rebuilding of those areas?

Haider Abadi: Yes, from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the UAE, but we should be clear and not speak in imaginations. We went there to have common interests. Investments, to completely open the doors of investment to have investments in those areas which will create jobs and the reconstruction will start. We will collaborate on that. They’ve successful projects in the UAE, even in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and we can work together on that and on starting investments which is important for us now, especially taking into account the decline in oil prices.

Rudaw: Mr. Prime Minister, you had a meeting with the Saudi King. Is it true that Saudi Arabia has written off its debts on Iraq?

Haider Abadi: We did not raise or discuss that topic, but we will certainly talk about it at a later date to normalize Saudi-Iraqi relations not only politically, but on economic and social levels too. That is important to us. Saudi Arabia is our neighbor and we cannot continue to live without understanding each other. Relations between Saudi Arabia and Iraq were severed after the invasion of Kuwait by Saddam’s regime in 1991, but today, we need to expand and renew those relations. We should not live in the past. There are tensions and some on both sides don’t want these ties to normalize, but we need to work together and bring the relations down to all levels so that they benefit us all. There was a Saudi consensus on this too.

Rudaw: In the final statement of the Arab Summit there was a reference to preserving Iraq’s territorial integrity as part of the security of the Arab world. Was that reference put there by your demand and related to the Kurdish quest for independence?

Haider Abadi: No, that was not the aim. It was about the agendas out there to split Iraq. As you know, for a time now there has been talk that Iraq will split into three regions of Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis. But that is totally objectionable. We are serious about Iraq’s territorial integrity. You know that even the new US administration insists on Iraq’s territorial integrity. We want that to be the approach of us all. We believe that a united Iraq is stronger for all of us. As regards independence, I see it more as a wish and desire and everybody has the right to have wishes and work to fulfill them. But in reality there are interests that you must keep them in mind.

Will you achieve your interests with separation or are they with a united Iraq where all of its people live together? Separation now and in the past has done the Kurds harm because your neighbors do not accept that either. You have opposing neighbors who will embargo you. Europe is now leading to opening the removal of barriers and trade. If we head towards separation we will harm ourselves. I believe many Kurdish politicians—though they don’t dare to say it publicly—say that it is true, the Kurds’ best interest is to remain within Iraq. But on the condition—which I agree with too—that Kurds will get the same treatment as all other Iraqis and without discrimination. All Iraqis must be treated equally and as a first class citizen.

Rudaw: You said some neighboring countries oppose a Kurdish separation. Have any countries said this to you?

Haider Abadi: That is not a secret. Turkey is officially against the separation of the Kurdistan Region. Iran’s official position is against the separation of the Kurdistan Region. The former Syria, as state and government were against that too. And I believe the general situation of the Arab world doesn’t want that either. You live in a region that does not help separation. Separation is a natural course for a people in a certain time and circumstance with which they cannot live, but I think it is the other way for the Kurds. Kurds live the best in Iraq compared to other countries.

Rudaw: You have good relations with the Kurdish President Masoud Barzani and Kurdish Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani. Do you have any project or proposal on solving the outstanding issues between Erbil and Baghdad?

Haider Abadi: We have spoken about that and it needs wide discussions. We need to resolve our problems. Our ties today are better than before. Blood has brought us together. Kurds and Arabs fought one enemy together. And it would be a shame, as Barzani and I talked about too, to return to the old disputes again. We have sacrificed blood together and a trust has been built between the Iraqi army and the Peshmerga. We must build on that and solve the issues. I have said the same thing to the leaders of the PUK (Patriotic Union of Kurdistan) and Gorran (Change Movement). I am really not happy with the rivalry going on inside the Kurdistan Region.

Rudaw: Where does the Gordian knot lie in the Kurdish-Iraqi relations exactly?

Haider Abadi: It is all an accumulation and backlog of problems that have not been solved in their time. Problems of the Baath era and since 2003 there have been problems and no real effort has been made to resolve them. All that has been done has been flattering one another. Now, the first thing we need to solve is the oil and from there moving on to the budget and how we treat the budget. We must reach a law for Iraq’s revenues and how it will be distributed on the Kurdistan Region and the provinces. That needs to be talked about and in a calm atmosphere. I believe we could solve this issue within the framework of the interests of the Iraqi people. We must solve the issues one by one and not all together. We must do that in atmosphere where trust each other otherwise nothing will happen no matter the efforts.

I admit that solving those issues are not easy because a number of years has passed on each one of them and one of them is the disputed territories which I call them the collaborative territories, even though we cannot change the constitutional name. There is a dispute over those territories but we should work together to resolve them and let the people of those territories to run them jointly. Also there is the issue of customs and border gates which everybody agrees must be under the federal government. The oil must also be under the federal government according to the article 111 and 112 of the constitution and I believe we can work to resolve this too. I am after solving all the problems, but it is not only about Erbil and Baghdad. They must be expanded and discussed under a wider political umbrella and on a governmental level. It doesn’t matter if it is done in the Kurdistan Region or in Baghdad.

Rudaw: If the Kurdish presidency and the Kurdistan Region officially go for a referendum on self-determination, will you accept that?

Haider Abadi: I have asked the Kurdish leaders not to out us or themselves in an embarrassing situation. But as they say, we will have something to say when that happens. I don’t like prolonging the issue of referendum because the result is already obvious. But the question is whether they will act on the results or not? All the Kurdish leaders say now is not the right time for separation.

Rudaw: What has Masoud Barzani said to you on the referendum?

Haider Abadi: I don’t want to tell you what he has said. It is something private. But it is clear that now the timing is not on the side of the Kurds for separation. I know some raise the issue of referendum in order to be in a strong position, but I say a referendum is something you do in order to act on. If the result of the referendum is a vote to separate will Kurdistan separate? That requires long discussions with your partner because you live in one country and you need to talk with and understand your partner. That’s why my point has been: lets come together and discuss and reach an agreement on all those issues. I am not for Kurdistan’s separation from Iraq despite my belief in people’s right for deciding their future. We must understand each other and live together.

Rudaw: Mr. Prime Minister, have you licensed any company to expand or install any new refinery in Kirkuk?

Haider Abadi: Those details are with the oil ministry. The minister of oil told me there was a proposal for expanding the refinery and the ministry has asked to see more details because we cannot accept refineries like those of the past anymore. Previous refineries were weak and half the oil was going to waste. New refineries must be of good standard and have good products. The ministry is handling that.

Rudaw: On raising the Kurdish flag in Kirkuk. It is said that you will cut the salaries of civil servants in reaction. Wil you do that?

Haider Abadi: Kirkuk is for all the people of Kirkuk with all its communities. There are Kurds, Arabs, Turkmen, Christians and others in Kirkuk who must live together. I think the issue should not be deal with in the context of majority because that is the matter of coexistence and coexistence means living in one frame. Some give great value to a flag, other don’t. Some think it is a symbol and that by raising it Kirkuk will be part of Kurdistan while others believe it just shows the identity of one of the city’s Kurdish community. But I believe now is not the time for that problem. Now, there is Hawija west of the city and we must come together on liberating it. I ask the governor and the council to remove that [flag]. A flag will change nothing. The situation in Kirkuk cannot afford any provocations. I’ve learned that Arabs and Turkmen have boycotted the council meeting.

Rudaw: If the flag continues to fly, will you block the salaries?

Haider Abadi: No, I believe that is a harsh move and I hope we don’t come to that. We should not come to that. Kirkuk is now legally part of Iraq. It is not part of the Kurdistan Region and Iraq’s laws apply there. According to the law, it is not in the authority of the provincial council to decide on a flag. The provinces have the national federal flag of Iraq. I ask the governor and governorate to control this issue. The governor must be for all the people of the province just as the prime minister is for all Iraqis. I hope he is after the interests of the people of the province. I did not want to touch upon this issue in order not to fuel the fire, but you asked me and I answer. Kirkuk is for all its people and I ask that there should be no provocations. True that a flag may not mean much, but to some it is something and that feeling must be respected.

Rudaw: Final question is: As the commander of the armed forces, when will the war in Mosul finish?

Haider Abadi: In fact, we are in the final square and ISIS knows they are surrounded in that square. Even though some wanted to create uncertainties for our forces with what was published about a massacre. It was a massacre against civilians but ISIS is to blame because ISIS had forced people into that house, planted bombs, and put car bombs in some areas. Despite all that, our forces have made great advances in recent days and will finish it all in the coming weeks with God’s help.