There is “no justification for this at all,” said Huth. “There is no foreign occupation of Iraq. There is no reason to fire those rockets.”
Diplomats need to get out into the street and meet people, but the precarious security situation in Baghdad prohibits this, he said. The rocket attacks “just disables us and others from doing our job properly, from helping Iraq.”
Rudaw: How do you see the situation in Iraq since the arrival of Mustafa al-Kadhimi as prime minister?
Martin Huth: With the arrival of the new prime minister and the designation of Mustafa al-Kadhimi as prime minister of Iraq, of course the previous period has come to an end. You know the previous government resigned, then there was a long search for a new prime minister and all of this happened in the wake and accompanied by large protests in Iraq. So it is good that the prime minister has been found. It is good that there is a government now that is fully aware of the problems that Iraq is facing, and these problems are happening on very many levels. There’s the economic problems, social problems, the security issues, and of course a lot of political problems and top of this you have the COVID crisis. So Iraq is facing many, many problems and issues at the same time. And again it is good to have a government that is not only aware of these problems, but that is actually making efforts to tackle these problems. So we see there is good movement, good potential, but I do not want to deny that the issues and problems the country is facing – and that is really the entire country – are enormous. And the tasks and the challenges are also very, very big for this government.
Will he be able to sort out many problems which started years ago? The political parties play a crucial role in the government in Iraq.
We will see this. I think we will see this when elections are eventually held. You know one of the components of the program is to have early elections, that is elections earlier than the original date in 2022. So these elections have been set for June next year. It is very crucial that all the steps are happening to enable these elections, like to finish the process, the electoral law process. And the turn out will show. But coming back to your original questions, will this government, which by definition is a transitional government, be able to solve all of Iraq’s problems in the time that stays until the elections. No of course not. That is a longer process and any reforms, and I am specifically talking about the economic field, will take a much longer time. But you need to analyze the problems, you need to find the roadmap, and then you have to tackle these reforms.
You have condemned the killing of activists and protesters in Iraq on a number of occasions. What should the Iraqi government do to stop this killing?
These killing of activists, it’s killings, it’s intimidations. If we count the figures since the outbreak of demonstrations in October 2019, I think there have at least been 500 people killed. Lately we have seen a new spate of attacks against civil activists, notably in the south of Iraq. This is of extreme concern to the European Union. We’ve been condemning this, we continue to condemn this.
Only condemning?
Well we have condemned it. It has to stop. And I think coming to your question, what the government do. The government has to investigate these killings and I think announcement has been made. There have to be results of these investigations, the perpetrators have to be identified and prosecuted. And the overall challenge, and we are all aware of this, is of course that the state has to assure its monopoly on the use of coercive force. In any country in the world, it is only the state and state organs and institutions that have the right, under specific circumstances, to use violence and to use force, and that cannot be up to others. And our assumption is that, at least for a very large part of these attacks and killings, they are aimed at intimidating these people, and it’s probably armed groups, armed gangs that are behind that, and these groups need to be brought under control. This is an overriding issue for Iraq.
In the past months, rockets have been fired at the Baghdad International Airport and the US embassy. Doesn’t this situation cause obstacles in front of your duty in Iraq?
Obviously, I mean the security situation as a whole and the rocket attacks as one aspect of this, they do not make our lives specifically easier in Iraq. I mean as a diplomat in any country where you are, you really depend on being able to go out and to meet people. And I think diplomacy in the 21st century is not just government-to-government relations, but you need to able to meet people on the street. You want to be able to get an idea of what’s happening, what do people think, what is going on. And all of this is very, very difficult in view of the security situation. On top of this, we have those rocket attacks. And let me be very clear on them, there is no justification for this at all. I mean, the narrative that we hear just calls for a very straightforward answer. There is no foreign occupation of Iraq. There is no reason to fire those rockets. It just disables us and others from doing our job properly, from helping Iraq, and again it is of course it is against all international norms and practices that embassies, diplomatic institutions are the subject of such attacks. And of course those who fire those attacks, what they are committing in legal terms are reckless acts. They’re endangering people. Rockets fall left and right of, specifically, the American embassy. And you know people can get killed. What purpose does it serve?
Mr. Ambassador, who is behind these rockets, do you think?
Well, behind the rocket attacks are, again, militias, armed groups. I am only following what we see and hear in the media. This is why I raised the issue of the so-called foreign occupation of Iraq. These are forces that are against foreign presences, that are against the presence of the Coalition. Let me remind you that the European Union is a non-military member of the Coalition in Iraq. The purpose of this Coalition is very clear. It is to help Iraq in a task that I think everybody agrees on, the fighting of Daesh [Islamic State, ISIS]. So there’s no reason to attack anybody for being a member of the coalition. And again, so far the narrative is the fight against foreign occupation. I do not see a foreign occupation of Iraq.
The Americans said there are linked Iranian groups behind in these attacks.
There are armed militias. I’m not going to establish a direct connection with Iran. That is not the point. But I think from the statements and from those who encourage for the attacks, it is very clear from which quarter it is coming from.
You said you are not able and free to go out into the streets in Baghdad, talk to people directly. You’ve been to Erbil, to Kurdistan for a few days. Do you see any differences between the two cities, the situation in Iraq, in terms of security, and Erbil?
Well I’m here now for the third time in Erbil. I was not able to come for a long time because of the situation in Baghdad, because of the COVID crisis. So I’m happy to be here now I think for five days. I’m not only in Erbil, I’m also going to Sulaimani, so I have the opportunity to get a little bit of a broader picture on KRI [Kurdistan Region of Iraq]. No, of course here you drive around Erbil, what I just described before, seeing, smelling, tasting is a little bit easier here, and therefore that of course makes it pleasant to be here.
Mr. Ambassador, there are tensions between Tehran and Washington, it’s grown recently. Does it affect your job in Iraq? Because part of this conflict takes place in Iraq.
Yes, you are absolutely right. The confrontation and the discontent between Iran on the one side and the United States continues to play out in Iraq. It does not so much affect my work I would say, but in so far as we are looking at the evolving the political situation in the region and Iraq, of course that is something that we look at and that we try to analyze. And let me say a word on this. From my own perspective, I would say Iraq is a little bit caught up in the middle. It is geographically, historically it is in the middle of a region that at times tends to be very turbulent. So what is the fate and the character of a country like Iraq, that finds itself in that specific situation? I think that there are two opportunities, two possibilities. One of them is that it flourishes on the fact that is in the middle of everything. It could be a meeting point between various powers and people coming from various areas and regions, and it could flourish on that basis.
Is it flourishing?
It could also be a country that is exploited, abused, and is suffering under the fact that it is in that precarious situation. And I would say, and we would probably agree, that Iraq should make a transition from one of these states towards the other one. That is where I would wish the trajectory of Iraq to be. I would see even a lot of positive potential there.
Based on your analysis and intelligence you receive, what are the likelihood and the risks of the Islamic State strengthening its position in Iraq and the wider region?
Let me do away with the notion of intelligence, because the European Union, we are not a state, we are not a country, we do not have our own intelligence. So I think it is more common sense and observing. And from that perspective, it is clear the more divided Iraq is, the more dire the economic situation in Iraq is, the more violent the situation in Iraq is, the bigger is the likeliness terrorist groups like Daesh can explode that situation and can make a comeback. So that danger is always there. We see that overall the fight against Daesh has taken a positive course, but there are pockets that still exist. I think Daesh has the need to re-assert itself by launching attacks here or there, maybe also for the economic reasons. So everybody has to be vigilant and the fight has to continue.
Are you of the opinion that so many armed groups in Iraq would help the internal stability?
No. The clear answer is absolutely no. So we’re coming back to the need of asserting the state monopoly of power. I mean, who in any country in the world is supposed to hold arms and play a dominant role in the shaping of a country and involve and engage with armed means? This is wholly unacceptable and I think the government is very well aware of this fact.
How much does the existence of so many different armed groups with sectarian inclinations contribute towards empowering organizations like ISIS Daesh in Iraq?
Again, they would exploit those divisions, they would exploit the negative impacts that instability in Iraq has. Look at the social-economic situation. Joblessness, wide-spread frustration – these are the breeding grounds for extremist organizations. Probably not just Daesh, but others as well. So that again illustrates the need, not just to fight such organizations, but to work towards the economic recovery of the country and the stabilization of the country.
I want to move to another subject, which is the relationship between Erbil and Baghdad. How helpful is the existence of an agreement and long-standing cooperation between the federal government in Baghdad and the Kurdistan Region, towards stability in Iraq?
I think the key word in your question is the word long-term. We have recently seen the conclusion of a temporary agreement, temporary insofar as it does not go very far into the future. That is a good step. I understand that Baghdad does not yet have a budget for 2020. Twenty-one is still in the stars. KRI has not had a real budget, I think, for the last five years. And we are facing that situation at times of economic crisis. There is, of course, a temptation when resources are scarce, when oil prices are collapsing, that everyone will, as we say, scramble to get what they can get. But I think the right way forward is to realize that the crisis affects everybody. To turn it into something positive, insofar to say there is a need to come together and to work on a long-term agreement. A long-term agreement, with long-term mechanisms between Baghdad and Erbil is the only way out. And I would just hope that both sides, Baghdad and Erbil, in this situation, realize the need to come together and work on a long-term deal. This is what I’m doing, what my other European colleagues are doing. All the time we’re encouraging both sides to work towards that effect. And I think it can be done and it should be done. It is the only way out.
Does the EU have a plan to help the federal government and the Kurdistan Region to resolve their disagreement over the disputed territories, according to Article 140 of the constitution of Iraq?
You are mentioning, the basis is the constitution. The basis has to be the constitution. The European Union is not actively involved in any of this. Again we are encouraging both sides to find a solution, and, just as you say, on the basis of the constitution.
Encouraging – always European countries, America say we encourage both sides. But how does it work?
It is like any issue in Iraq. You need an Iraqi-owned and Iraqi-led process. I’m sure that people, both in Baghdad and Erbil, when they come and sit together with an open mind, they will come up with models. Models that will not necessarily be hundred percent satisfying to either side, maybe more or less in the shape of compromise. It’s the will that counts and I have full trust that, if there is good will, people will find solutions. And these are not solutions that we can prescribe or anybody else should prescribe.
Mr. Ambassador, does the EU have any future plans to assist those areas that were devastated because of the war with ISIS, in particular I mean Shingal, the Yezidi place?
This gives me the opportunity to, and if you allow me for a second, to speak about our engagement in Iraq.
Please go ahead.
The EU, as an institution, the European Union, is actually the third largest provider of assistance to Iraq. If we count our member states in as well, so the European Union and all the member states that are engaged in Iraq, we are by far the largest provider of assistance, in very, very many areas with a portfolio of, I think, right now, 800 something million euros. There is a specific focus also on the liberated areas, since many years, it focuses on reconstruction, rehabilitation, fighting unemployment, getting people back to work in their fields and farms in Sinjar and in Nineveh Plains. We are helping thousands and thousands of farming families to rebuild their lives. As you know, the Nineveh Plains, the breadbasket of Iraq was almost completely destroyed. People are displaced and when they come back, they normally don’t find anything. So we have a number of programs that assist them. I think in Sinjar, since you were asking about it, it is also about finding ways and helping ways of how communities can live together again, facilitate their return. All of this involves many actors, many efforts.
We are doing this, and allow me to mention a specific problem we are facing in this regard. That is the fact that our projects are implemented largely through the United Nations, but also to some extent by NGOs who are operating in Iraq. All these actors – we call them implementers, we provide the funds, we agree on the projects, and they implement them – have been facing now for eight or nine months at least, the problem that they do not have access to the areas where they are supposed to work. And I want to make it very clear that, unfortunately, if these implementers are not able to go where they’re supposed to do their work, we cannot provide the assistance that is so desperately needed. If you take, for example, the issue of the closure of IDP [internally displaced persons] camps, and there is a plan by the Iraqi government to close the IDP camps, and closure of course requires that people are going from A to B. And all of this has to be done in an orderly fashion, because returns have to be voluntary and they have to be dignified and they cannot just happen in a split second. So people need to be there to help and assist. But if we are not able to be there, then this cannot be done, then this plan of the Iraqi government cannot be enacted. So I would like to use this platform to appeal to everyone concerned to really solve this issue of access and allow our implementers to do their good work in Iraq, which is, in the end, for the sake of Iraq and for the good of Iraq.
Those people who hold a Schengen visa in Kurdistan cannot travel to Europe without the permission of a European hospital. When will this travel of citizens of the Kurdistan Region be normal again?
I don’t have a magic ball. I don’t know when the COVID crisis is over. We are all affected by it. I’m not aware that people who are traveling from Iraq to Europe need the permission of a hospital to travel. I’m absolutely not aware of this.
Actually, there is an understanding.
Every country in the COVID crisis sets its own standards for arrivals from certain countries. What of course does happen is that people have to go into quarantine, they have to bring a PCR test. When I go to Iraq, I have to provide a test as well. And of course it is not very comforting for many travelers and sometimes it is difficult. But these measures, I think they are understandable. They’re not, non-discriminatory. They are taken on the basis of the risk posed by travelers from some specific countries where the situation is either good or maybe not so good. And travelers have to arrange themselves these days and traveling has become more difficult. But it is not correct to assume that traveling from Iraq is impossible or that you can only travel to Europe with the permission of a hospital. That is new to me and I think that is not correct.
Mr. Ambassador, one question about the financial disagreement between Kurdistan Region and Iraq. Are you helping to resolve this issue between Baghdad and Erbil?
I’m back to saying we encourage them to approach this in a manner whereby both sides would, I would say, look in the mirror, realize their economic shortcomings, realize mistakes of the past, talking salaries. Money both in Baghdad and in Erbil largely is spent on very unproductive purposes by simply paying salaries. That’s what you call a rentier state. And this is not a sustainable model for the future. So an agreement has to be found on a model that is more sustainable. And I would just repeat again, instead of scrambling and trying to salvage in financial monetary terms what can be salvaged, come together and develop a joint plan and long-lasting mechanisms. KRI, from our perspective, has to be part of the overall recovery of the Iraqi economy.
Are the parties listening to your advice in Iraq, political parties?
We have good exchange with all parties, but what I always find very interesting is when I speak to political leaders, and even academics and Iraqis as such, there is a very good understanding with everybody what is not perfect in Iraq and what should be changed. Everybody understands this. There is clarity of vision and full understanding. What we would like to see, as an outside observer and somebody who has an interest in Iraq’s prosperity, is that these insights are being put into practice.
And let me explain to you the interest that we have in this. We live in the 21st century. When I was a child, when I was growing up, and I’m from Germany, this region, these countries were basically, from our perspective, they were far away. We did not feel impacted by this. The oil crisis in the 1970s was the first occasion that we really felt the impact of things and decisions taken here. But now we live in a world that we’re so close that the world is digitalized, it’s globalized, going from A to B is two hours. We had the big refugee crisis in 2015 and 2016. So everybody now understands what is happening here in Iraq, in the region, affects us in Europe practically the next day. We are neighbours, our fates are joined. So this is why we have a pretty hard interest in stability and prosperity in this region. And we cannot ignore what is going on here and that is also why we are, in a friendly way, pushing for change. This is why we are assisting and this is why we keep being hopeful for Iraq, for Iraq as a whole and for KRI as well.
Mr. Martin Huth, the EU ambassador for Iraq, thank you very much.
Thank you. It’s a pleasure being here.
